The value of conducting tracking research – i.e., asking the exact same questions of an equivalent nationwide sample of people over an extended period of time – is that you can see movement in behavior and beliefs that is undetectable when data are simply examined from year to year. In other words, a typical national survey provides a snapshot of the moment in time the survey was conducted. A survey replicated a year later provides two snapshots, allowing a simple comparison. When you have twenty consecutive snapshots based on the same survey instrument you have time-lapse photography – in some ways, a movie. Changes you could not see by simply looking at one snapshot or perhaps snapshots from consecutive years become visible when you have a string of snapshots representing a time period long enough to uncover minor annual fluctuations that can be dismissed as the effects of sampling error.
In this new Update, notice several patterns. First, beliefs did not change much. Behavior, however, changed substantially. Because we know that behavior follows beliefs, we could have anticipated the behavioral changes three and four decades ago, when there was major upheaval in our belief systems. The seeds that were sown in the Sixties have now borne their fruit: decreases in church attendance, Sunday school participation, Bible reading, and church volunteerism.
Second, a deeper examination of the data revealed that there is a huge degree of behavioral and belief shifting taking place at a sub-national level. In other words, there is a lot of change that gets canceled out when you simply look at the net statistic for a specific factor. For instance, the percentage of adults who consider themselves to be Christian appeared to stay relatively unchanged over the 20 years in question. That suggests there has been little ferment on this matter. However, that national average masks the fact that in the Northeast, of all places, the proportion of self-identified Christians rose by ten points at the same time that it dropped by seven points in the Midwest. We will dive into some of the critical subgroup explorations over the next eight days in a series of segmentation analyses released on barna.org and commented upon here.
Third, notice that as alarming as a nine percentage point drop in average weekly church attendance is, a companion statistic is equally as alarming: the 13-point increase in those who are now unchurched. Some church analysts have claimed – incorrectly, as it turns out – that the ranks of the unchurched are swelling because younger adults have stopped attending church. In truth, the biggest decline of all has occurred among Baby Boomers (an 18-point dip).
Another interesting angle pertains to when increases and decreases began. It is normal for there to be minimal changes in the percentage of the public that gives any particular response from year to year – fluctuations that might be attributable to sampling error or other uncontrollable factors (such as a snowstorm that prevents people in a region from attending church services during the period of the interviewing). Consequently, we look for longer-term patterns.
For instance, the biggest share of the decline in church attendance occurred between 1991 and 2001; there has not been much change in the past decade. The same pattern is evident regarding church volunteerism. However, adult Sunday school attendance appears to have experienced a very slow but steady decline over the past two decades, diminishing by four points per decade – not enough to be alarmed about in a single decade, but significant when it amounts to eight points over twenty years, and a trend line that clearly slopes downward.
Looking at the data regarding beliefs, we also see that more than seven out of ten adults held an orthodox view of the nature of God through 2001; it has only begun to dip in the past several years. Likewise, people’ views of the accuracy of the scriptures held steady until the latter part of this past decade.
Overall, the picture is not pretty though it falls somewhat short of disaster. If existing tendencies continue, then we will likely see an increase in the numbers of people who do not accept a conventional definition of God’s character and those who reject the accuracy of the principles taught in the scriptures. Adult Sunday school could easily go the way of the all-but-forgotten midweek service. The percentage of unchurched people will probably continue to climb as the percentage of adults attending church services remains on the downward slope.
What do you make of this picture?
Read the Barna Update: “Barna Examines Trends in 14 Religious Factors Over 20 Years“
July 26, 2011
My wife and I stopped attending “organized church” 15 yrs. ago and have a small fellowship in our home. We continue to be committed Christians with a desire to serve the Lord.
Our reason for not attending an organized church is that the “system” does not meet the needs of many people. Since Jesus is the Head of the church and the church is His body, His body is seeking relationship with the Head and with other members of His body. The system is not the body of Christ thus it does not meet the needs of the body.
Since the system is a man-made organization, it is impossible for it to be the Body of Christ.
The Body of Christ is not properly connected and alligned with the Head, thus we see an ineffective and confused Body. However, Jesus by the Holy Spirit is drawing people to Himself. It just isn’t being seen in the system. It’s happening in small groups all across the globe. Jesus is building His church (His Body) His way and not man’s way.
That’s basically how I see it from where I sit. Thanks.
July 26, 2011
i am curious about your justification for not attending church stating “the system does not meet the needs of many people”. Where does Hebrews 10:25 fit in here? The context of this verse suggests that the assembling together of the Saints allows for the provoking unto love and good works and the exhorting of one another.Yes, you can do this with a small group, but what about the rest of the Saints?
July 26, 2011
The only organizations that are not man-made are those found in nature and possibly those created by non-humans.
July 26, 2011
Hey Bob & George,
In your survey, would home church groups qualify for a “church service” ? I understand Bob’s point, while continuing to be a local church. Thanks Bob for following Holy Spirit.
Blessings,
greg
July 26, 2011
I also find it hard to believe that you don’t go to an organized church. That is where I go to get uplifted and as a body of believers worship the Lord. We are blessed by others when they testify for the Lord, and you could be robbing others of a blessing because you are not sharing what the Lord is doing for you with a lot of people. We have had Bible Studies in our home also, but it is not the same as “Church”. I think if you ask the Lord, he will send you to a “Church” where you can go to and be used to do His work. There is no “Church” that is perfect. I don’t go along with everything my “Church” does, but it doesn’t keep me from going to the church. God says that the church should be organized. Hope this helps. I’m not trying to critize you but to talk to you in God’s love.
July 26, 2011
This is a response to Greg’s question. We have a separate series of questions we ask to determine if the individual attends a house church of some type. Those people are then backed out of the “unchurched” statistic.
July 26, 2011
Ms. Diana,
I really like your thought there…
I’m “Robbing” somebody of a blessing by NOT being in their congregation.
In Reality… I’ve been “Invited to visit other churches” by the Shepherds of those congregations that I tried to bless.
July 26, 2011
How do you define “the system.”
July 26, 2011
Mr. Goyer, the question I left for Mr. Slater was meant for you. How do you define “the system.”
July 26, 2011
Just curious; Where has your tithe gone for the past fifteen years? In other words, how do you give your tithe to God (the store house of God)?
July 26, 2011
Thanks again for your meaningful study. When you say 40% of adults are born again who are the “adults”, all adults in the U.S,? “Christan” adults?,
July 26, 2011
All people 18 or older in the US.
July 26, 2011
How do you explain the difference in attendance in
the Sunday Morning worship service as compared to the Sunday evening service and as compared to the Wednesday night service?
Have you addressed this in your surveys?
July 26, 2011
Jim Cymbala, in his book, “Fresh Wind, Fresh Fire” quoted an Australian pastor visiting Jim’s little church:
“You can tell how popular a church is by who comes on Sunday morning. You can tell how popular the pastor . . . is by who comes on Sunday night. But you can tell how popular Jesus is by who comes to the prayer meeting.”
In general I think that may be about right.
July 26, 2011
The worshiping experience is not a popularity contest, is it? How can this metaphor be applied to the spiritual connection?
This is clearly the expression of non Christian way of cultural thinking. The way is not to our Christian performance based on popularity context. Certainly that is not what George is trying to convey in his survey. The survey is only a survey, it is not the way. Perhaps, this type of thinking is where we failed to communicate with the culture in a proper perspective today.
July 26, 2011
We don’t address it because it’s not relevant to what we are trying to measure. The question asks if people attended a church service at any time during the past week. With Catholics, they could attend a morning Mass. With Protestants it could be a Sunday evening or mid-week service. For 7th Day Adventists it could be their Saturday service. For our measurement purposes, the exact day and time of their attendance does not matter – we’re not asking about Sunday morning services.
July 26, 2011
I see some of these same trends in my friends and myself – who for the most part are Baby Boomers. I have several friends who have stopped going to church. They are not getting fed at the church where they are members, this particular church (denomination) is becoming more liberal, and it is not preaching Biblical application. So, some have found new churches, some are doing church at home by watching services on TV, some are struggling with it. What happens when you realize the church you have attended pretty much your whole life has grown away from the authority of Scripture? At the same time, these friends are strongly dedicated to Bible study, learning and growing in their faith. We feel like we haven’t left church…the church (religious denomination) has left us.
July 26, 2011
Hey Susan,
Please don’t give up on Jesus. The body needs you. I found this out the hard way. You can’t change the direction of the ship (denomination) from the outside. You can only change it from the steering room.
I don’t beleive in church hopping, but seek God’s face earnestly on what He’d have you do.
Blessings,
greg
July 26, 2011
Greg…
No offense… but from what I’ve been able to determine… Augustine stuck a magnet near the ship’s Compass.
July 26, 2011
I wonder sometimes if this trend could be seen as a good thing for the Church of Jesus Christ. As much as it is a harsh reality, it is reality nonetheless that people who have conected themselves to the Church through a religious response to a spiritual call have missed the mark. While I have no interest in judging them in an eternal sense, with the distance that they put between biblical Christianity and themselves, their needs are easier to discern and the message of salvation (if needed) or encouagement (if needed) can more easily be shaped to their personal situation. With the Church in the 21st cenury as a significant mission field, those called to teach will never be at a loss for work.
July 26, 2011
I don’t doubt the statistical changes cited over this 20-year period… that is, I don’t question the research done. I do wonder what people are thinking when they call themselves “born again Christians”. If 40% of the adults in America today were committed followers of Jesus Christ, I think we’d be turning the nation (if not the world) on its ear.
“What you would seem to be, be really.” (Just Googling this phrase indicates that it has been around in one form or another since something like 500 BC—I’m thinking it shows a statistically significant concern with shallowness of professed beliefs.)
Again, not intending to shoot the messenger here, just marvelling at some of the stats.
July 26, 2011
Gary,
I dred wading off into this abyss, but here is what I see today, and have seen over the past 40 years. What you said about “shallowness of convictions” is merely a reflection of being as “spiritually shallow as spit.” Disgusting, I know, but graphic and accurate.
The cause: Minute (tiny) personal knowledge of God’s Word. The excuse: Too complicated. The truth: Too “lame” for words. I’d like to see the face of God when men accuse Him of making His Word so complicated that the Redeemed cannot understand it. Do we really think that will wash?
July 26, 2011
Gary, let me again clarify that in our surveys we do not rely upon people calling themselves “born again.” We tested that approach and found it is misleading. We ask two questions about their commitment to Christ, and salvation by grace rather than works, and then classify people as either born again or not born again based on their answers.
July 26, 2011
I have seen the changes found in the study occurring over time. I was a regular attendee, Sunday AM and PM, Wednesday, both class and worship, but now only attend Sunday AM worship. The church has gone away from feeding the followers and has moved toward more contemporary worship which leaders feel will attract the younger crowd. Few churches actually teach the gospel anymore instead they focus on attracting those that want more nontraditional worship services and classes. Those are the same ones who are not truly committed and will leave for the next suitor. I miss the days of truly studying the scripture in class and hearing the Word in service! We are not losing our youth, we are driving them away by not truly teaching them as they are growing up. Again, my opinion, and as I said, I was very committed and very active (invovled in leadership and volunteered a lot) up until about three years ago. I feel guilty but I just could no longer accept not feeling like I had worshiped GOD when I attended.
July 26, 2011
I’ll bet you never “studied Scripture” in the same way texts are studied in college. All you did was attempt to indoctrinate people with your tired old intellectually discredited dogma.
July 26, 2011
I see the peanut gallery has arrived.
Please go find a nice bridge to live under. This is not a debate site.
Comments and Questions from Mr. Barna’s Surveys should be welcome by all sides… because he informs us as to trends as he sees.
Heck… Atheists & the Rebellious should be very enthused by Mr. Barna’s work.
July 26, 2011
John – I think you’re the one who has
been indoctrinated — in college. Truly
sad! The last 2-3 generations of students graduating from high school and/or college have been indoctrinated to be anti-American and anti-Christian because our school and colleges are now godless institutions.
July 26, 2011
I have been a Sunday School teacher for 25 years and most of my class consists of people over 55 years of age. Our chuch has been teaching/preaching the gospel for years, yet, as we grow spiritually, we are not growing in number. How do we get the word out to the community to come to church and have their hearts challenged with the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ?
July 26, 2011
You can’t, because you will be attempting to reach those who either simply don’t want to be bothered with you, or actively reject your beliefs.
July 26, 2011
Well Warren… What are you teaching?
Using Lifeway’s stuff?
July 26, 2011
The decline in traditional religious beliefs is due to several factors. The most prominent of these are continuing scientific discoveries that contradict statements in the Bible, and the publication of anti-religious books that have proven popular with the reading public. Non-belief is now widespread in Europe and in Canada. In the U.s., non-belief is now spreading westward and southward from New England. Significantly, non-belief is strongest among the best-educated Americans and weakest among the least-educated ones.
July 26, 2011
Which scientific discoveries are you referring to? There are many discoveries that confirm the biblical record, cases of archaeology confirming the, until the discovery, attempted discrediting of the biblical record. And many scientists, who are among the “best-educated” are increasingly becoming more inclined toward biblical truths, not away from them. The knee jerk reaction to the Bible is usually one of rejection because the truth is too hard to face, or a lifestyle change isn’t desired, not necessarily because of other things. What do you say of the person of Jesus?
July 26, 2011
The Bible’s account of the physical history of the universe does not line up with what astrophysicists have found. The Bible’s description of geological history does not line up with what geologists have found (e.g., no worldwide flood). The Bible’s description of biology does not line up with what biologists have found (e.g., bats are not birds, species were not all created in their current form at one time but rather evolved over millions of years, etc.). There is no evidence that there was a Hebrew Exodus from Egypt, and considering the meticulous records that the Egyptians kept, this is a strong argument for it never having happened at all. Joshua got to Jericho centuries after the walls collapsed.
A better question would be one posed to you: Does the Bible contain any scientific facts that weren’t already known to people at the time that the books were written down? It certainly contains lots of misunderstandings possessed by those people. I would expect an omnipotent, omniscient god’s revelations to his people to contain something as simple as, “Wash your hands, germs cause disease”.
July 26, 2011
Hey… NFQ… wow.
1. Astrophysicists apparently do not even know how to tell time anymore.
See > http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/07/07/scientists-fight-effort-to-redefine-time/
Oh… and they have totally forgotten that E=MCsquared … aka Time & Space are relative
2. Geologists don’t read History.
Over 200 ancient cultures report the event of a massive flood in their history. (ALWAYS ALWAYS go with Eyewitness accounts over theories. Author Tom Clancy once said: “The difference between Fiction and Non-Fiction is that Fiction… has to make sense.”)
3. “Millions of years”…blah blah bleech!
Millions of years STILL does not give you enough time. You can’t go from a Rock to a soup to an Amoeba to anything else… EVER!!! It does not happen… EVER! The Food Industry alone produces BILLIONS of experiments every year proving that life does not come from non-life… AND they do it while using Organic materials. When was the last time you opened up a new jar of Pickles… and a Banana jumped out?
4. No Exodus? No Evidence?
Wanna see some pictures of the REAL Mt. Sinai? It’s in Arabia… not Egypt… just like Paul said…. not what Constantine’s Mother said.
Wanna see some pictures of it? Along with several other pictures of the area around it that have around a dozen features that line up with the biblical account. Well… on this one… I don’t blame you …BECAUSE EVERY FRIKKIN BIBLE PUBLISHER IN AMERICA STILL PUTS Mt. Sinai IN EGYPT ON THEIR MAPS… Idiots.
Oh… pictures:
http://www.arkdiscovery.com/mt__sinai_found.htm
Science facts that the Bible revealed that we didn’t know… just go Google Commodore Maury.
Also… wash hands… Leviticus 15:13 “and bathe his flesh in running water, and shall be clean.”
Idiot.
Here’s another just for you…”Bury your Poop”… Deut. 30.
Go read a book. You might learn something.
July 26, 2011
Rats… I made a mistake… “bury your poop”… that’s in Deuteronomy 23… not 30.
(editors note… ‘poop’ does not appear in the NIV… only in the BBV )
July 26, 2011
Hey John,
I am just wondering. It sounds like you don’t attend church (I may be assuming too much) and from possibly the younger crowd, maybe from the northeast.
So what drew you to this website? Do you have a relationship with Jesus Christ? Did you ever attend church? What was that experience like? Do you have Christian friends that attend church?
Blessings,
greg
July 26, 2011
Lemme throw a Peanut to the monkey here…
Actually… You should say that Religious Indoctrination by Public Institutions of Higher Knowldege is beginning to take hold quite well John.
I’m all for removing Religion from our Government Schools… and that means tossing Humanism out first.
July 26, 2011
A reasonable person would find enough evidence to convince them the Bible is true by examining the Gospel story hidden in the first ten names in the Genesis geneology (See: http://www.khouse.org/articles/2000/284/). If a person rejects that mathmatical impossibility and then moves on to reject the even greater impossibility found in the scores of parallels between Jacob’s son Joseph and Jesus (whose step father was also named Joseph) found at: http://dutyisours.com/josandjesus.htm … then we’re obviously dealing with the heart and not the head.
July 26, 2011
John H: This is called apostasy and proof that the world is fast becoming a godless society and it scares the living daylights out of me. Read the headlines about people shooting, killing, drugs, alcoholism, divorce, murder, adultery, pornography, for starters. The world has lost its way.
July 26, 2011
In Canada the falling numbers are mostly in the mainline churches where political correctness outranks Scripture. There was a sharp fall in attendance when the baby boomers reached adulthood, and things have been relatively stable since then.
Many older adults recognize that if they want their church to continue beyond the current generation, they must change styles of music and must read the whole of the New Testament and not only their favorite verses. But when those changes are accompanied by a laxity in holding on to Scripture, people leave and the church and Christianity are harmed.
I’m all in favor of home Bible studies. At present young adults in our congregation are meeting in homes while attending service but not Sunday School. I think that groups need to be attached to a larger church or denomination somehow, so that Scriptural teachings continue to be grounded in the discernment of more people than the few in their group. When the generation that was raised in the church falters, where will the kids raised in those groups go?
July 26, 2011
I hope the Barna Group is touch with Dr. Linda Mercadate’s field reserch among young adults re: the trend toward being spiritual but not religious. She is a professor of theology at the Methodist School of Theology in Ohio. Email her at LMercadante@mtso.edu She is looking for persons to interview.
July 26, 2011
Except the one comment made by John about “indoctrinating people with your same old tired dogma” I find much to agree with in all the above comments. However, I’d like to pose for readers of this article a different question which is this: If we grant intellectual acceptance of the research findings reported by Barna in this article, then WHAT SHOULD THE CHURCH’S STRATEGY BE TO ADDRESS THIS CHANGE IN CHURCH ATTENDANCE TRENDS?
What is most often missing from all the Barna research, (and for the most part I have always been impressed with his findings) is an informed recommendation for WHAT SHOULD BE DONE!!
I believe the so-called “new music” and “more informal worship style” is the major strategy being used today to address the very changes in church trends being talked about in this article. Most of the comments above seem unimpressed with this “new music trend” in certain churches. Fine . . be unimpressed . . . but offer a positive suggestion for what should be done. That’s what Barna has failed to do thus far, and none of us commenting have come up with any thing on our own either.
July 26, 2011
yes, check out alan hirsch and the missional movement where God is sending his church into the world not to then draw them back to the institution of church but to Him. many communities are forming out in the world. a good description can be found at http://www.friendofmissional.org/
July 26, 2011
Hey Brother Paul,
I echo your question. That is exactly why I found myself on this website today. My small rural church while kind of holding its own in attendance, has lost 60% of Sunday School attendance over the last 20 years. Mainly what I see happening at our church is the idea, “I graduated from high school, I should now be educated enough in the Bible now.” I suppose in the nineties it was the college age we lost that never returned. John’s referenece to college education has some merit. While older, I just graduated college and found being a Christian made you a second class student. The pressure to conform to their thinking is tremdous and if you are not firmly grounded in the word, I can see how ones faith could be shaken, if not destroyed.
Now the trend, continues with 20-30 year old parents who checked out during the last 20 years see no point to “suffer” through a second hour of “church” to let their children go to Sunday School.
Adding to the collapse of the structure of Sunday School (being a small church), if you are able to get Sunday School teachers, they show up 7 out of 8 Sundays with no students. Then on the 8th Sunday the student shows up and the teacher is not there.
As John mentioned, the new generation is finding it ever increasingly unfullfilling and unrewarding to make the effort for Sunday School. We may be seeing the slow demise of Sunday School, and slow collapse of the gathering together of the saints on Sunday morning worship following in one more generation.
Don’t get me wrong, I am a proponent of Sunday School. I believe that there should be worship of the Lord, a message preached to exhort believers to go out and be Jesus’ hands and feet, AND Bible study that we may be found approved of the wisdom and knowledge of Jesus Christ. It would be quite sad if our colleges was to exhort you to program a computer to your utmost and never teach you how!
What’s the answer to our problem? Are we asking the wrong questions? The last generation was taught to produce, and that is where we found our value. The new generation has been brought up in a consumer driven culture, where we are seeing the first harvest from this training. Consumerism has penatrated all aspects of our lives, even our Christianity.
We went to youth “hearing” conference the first of this year. It was so we could “hear” what the college age “needed” from the church. They came out loud and clear… “We don’t care what form of worship you have, it doesn’t matter we like it all… however don’t expect us to come all the time… we have stuff to do. We like you being there when we do come, just don’t try and “saddle us with your burden.”
I think my pastor really like what they were saying until he had an epiphany on the way home. “At that rate, he would be out of a job in about 20 years.”
Peter said in the last days there would be a great falling away from the faith. My hope is that I won’t be here to see it. Jesus told us that the gates of hell shall not prevail against His church! That’s the truth I am holding on to.
Blessings,
greg
July 26, 2011
Too late Greg… you’re seeing it.
July 26, 2011
Paul,
Methinks you put too much emphasis on the music.
Most of the CCM stuff that I’ve heard… pretty shallow in theology when compared to the Hymns of the past. Those crazy kids today just don’t have the same Biblical knowledge as the composers of the past… so they rely on feelings to replace knowledge.
Heck… I love classic (Pre-MTV) Rock & Roll… but I’d rather hear a 100 Seasoned Saints belting out “Old Rugged Cross” with power & Conviction… than anything on the Christian top 100 Chart today.
July 27, 2011
Paul: I have a more ‘positive’ suggestion. Any church can teach the Gospel but only those who teach/preach the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, will survive. Jesus said, “You will receive power AFTER the Holy Spirit has come upon you. The power to live victoriously lies therein and in the evil world we live in today dictates that we need that power.
July 26, 2011
As for what should be done check out the work of Mike Breen at 3D ministries or the work of Alan Hirsch. I think these folks are on to something when it comes to practical solutions. But what they suggest is not easy.
July 26, 2011
Define church as an organization and that is what is declining. Define “Church” as each indinidual person and you will find that His disorganization is doing fine in that God has won the victory. HIS body is growing in a foreign country without a passport. Their language is not understood and must be wise in including everyone whom God loves as HIS. “Church” must be free in knowing that God loves them so much that they can let God love all inclusively including even all the organizations.
July 26, 2011
Watching history unfold through the prism of biblical eschatology is fascinating, frightening and exhilarating all at the same time. Keep it coming people!
July 26, 2011
George, as always interesting timely topic for discussion and digestion. You have provided quite a running movie of 20 years of relevant data. Can’t wait for your interpretation of the data.
Beliefs VS behavior dilema again.
Being a “Baby Boomer” myself the 13% decrease in church attendance is of interest. I am surprised this trend did not continue last decade. I would have thought the trend would have continued.
Church attendance holding steady the past decade but beliefs waneing could mean only one thing, a failure of those churchs to build up as they are supposed to. But we know the status-quo church as we know it model is failing miserably in most if not all statistics.
As to your characterization of the data not painting a pretty picture and being just short of a disaster regarding the trends. I don’t know if I hold that view. I suppose it depends if one thinks our present church as we know it model of doing church is a good thing, a proper thing? Or if the church as we know it methodology is actually hindering the will of God, the discipling of the nations, and ushering in the kingdom of God?
Myself as a “Baby Boomer” who has left the status-quo, control oriented, top-down hierarchy, pastor dominated model in the past decade.
And joined the apostolic-prophetic led, flat co-equal, leadership model, where everybody functions, everybody participates, everybody has everything in common, having left all.
You asked: “What do you make of this picture?”
I make out the moving of the Holy Spirit, from a religious man made church, to a grass roots, Scriptural model. Most people don’t want church as we know it anymore. Some do. Most don’t.
I believe the status-quo church as we know it is doing the wrong thing, with the wrong people, for the wrong reasons, with the wrong goals, with the wrong methods, with the wrong structure, in the wrong place, at the wrong time, for the wrong reasons. They mean well with good intentions. But that don’t get it now in these times.
Sunday School doesn’t produce results.
Sunday morning church service attendance doesn’t produce results.
Status-quo church volunteerism doesn’t produce results.
Church as we know it 80-20 rule finances is a disaster.
In reading the 24 comments I am left with a sense of helplessness. 24 people 24 different ideas. It goes along with the splintered divided church of 30,000 sects.
I am tired of mans ideas.
I want real Scriptural, apostolic-prophetic supernatural, Jesus led ideas under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit revealing Gods will for a specific people, for a specific time, for a specific result, with the ground shakeing, blind seeing, dead raised, Gospel preached, nations discipled, kingdom coming.
Mans ideas and religion have failed.
I want the council of God.
It comes through dead to self, dead to ego, dead to agenda, Godly, humble, servant, apostles and prophets, in conjunction with the saints who are the same. Dead and buried with Christ and raised to newness of life doing Gods will, not their will.
That’s how I am seeing the picture.
July 27, 2011
I’m cut/pasted your statement: “I want real Scriptural, apostolic-prophetic supernatural, Jesus led ideas under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit revealing Gods will for a specific people, for a specific time, for a specific result, with the ground shakeing, blind seeing, dead raised, Gospel preached, nations discipled, kingdom coming.
Mans ideas and religion have failed” because you are a prime candidate for Pentecostal movement. I would highly recommend that if this is really what you want, try Sonlife Broadcasting Network. On Direct TV, it’s Channel 344. It’s on other cables/dish etc but I don’t know the channel numbers. They have exactly what you’re looking for – The Message of the Cross and power of the Baptism and anointing of the Holy Spirit. This ministry has been ‘called out’ for such a time as this — guaranteed. Anointed music too.
July 27, 2011
Dorothy,
Thanks for that post.
I don’t have direct TV, and even if I did, I don’t do christian TV. It is nonsense.
Why would I watch something supposedly going on instead of “DO” something?
I’m not interested nor do I have the time in watching someone else do so-called christianity, I am commissioned by Jesus Christ and compelled by the Holy Spirit to go, be and do.
I am interested though as to why you think “Sonlife Broadcasting Network Channel 344″ is so different than status-quo christianity as done in the church as we know it at large?
Be specific please, what sets them apart from what is going on everywhere else basically in this man made christian religious scheme that we are immersed in in the West?
Please don’t take this wrong my sister in Christ. I say this with honest inquiry for the purpose of christian dialogue.
July 26, 2011
Is it not evident that “The Church” does not speak with one voice? Mt. 3:3
July 27, 2011
Paulus,
Define “one?”
Define “make ready?”
Define “the way of the Lord?”
Define “His paths?”
Define “straight?”
July 26, 2011
it seems as though the decline in church and Sunday school attendance, and the decline in Bible reading and orthodox beliefs is tied together.
I’m wondering what the connection is, there. What came first?
And think about it. How many times have we heard our kids complain about learning something in school that they’ll “never use in real life”? Like learning a foreign language that is never spoken anywhere but in their classroom?
I wonder if that’s what reading Bible reading and Sunday school feel like to many church goers. Withough application, Bible study remains a useless subject. Spiritual experiences can be had regardless of what one believes, so why have orthodox beliefs?
Dropping off the grid to be in organic fellowship doesn’t seem to have stopped the downward trend of orthodox beliefs and Bible reading. I would consider that troubling.
July 26, 2011
Mr. B,
Believers & Non-Believers split over Genesis 1:1.
Believers & Believers split… a few chapters later.
That second split… Is a bigger issue in the Culture than the first one.
Billion$ bigger.
Hm.. how should I hire you?
July 26, 2011
I really enjoy these continuing reports by the Barna Group because of the insights provided into the thinking and actions of so-called Christians. This report, however, is shocking because of its extreme disconnect with reality. I’ve concluded from the report that Americans are liars or in an advanced stage of self deception.
After nearly seven decades I’ve concluded that Americans are:
1. Thieves – they band together in groups to get control of the guns in order to steal from the losers (and they call it taxation instead of stealing)
2. Killers – they walk the earth taking what they want by force, killing without conscience as we’re now doing in the Middle East creating more enemies among those whose innocent loved ones were killed indiscriminately and barbariously.
3. Pagans – they live as though God and his revealed plan for healthy, wholesome living don’t exist.
4. Idolaters – they look to government for their provision rather than trusting in God.
5. Totalitarians – they use government to force others to live as they believe they should rather than let people make their own personal choices as God ordained (our unalienable rights)
6. I’ve recently added “Cowards” – they give up freedom for security and submit to being porn stars or sexually molested, or both, in order to travel by air among other evidence of cowardice.
As a result of the current Barna survey, I’m considers adding “Liars.” There’s no way a people with the above 6 characteristics can consist of 40% born again, 67% believing God still rules, 84% claiming they are “Christian,” and 65% having a personal commitment to Jesus Christ; unless, of course the 6 characteristics above are Christian.
Whereas I grew up always being at church whenever the doors were open, I now no longer attend church. I’ve learned that pastors are cowards; they won’t take a public stand against the immorality prevalent today. They have nothing to say to me that I’m interested in hearing. And, obviously they have nothing to say to their congregants either as evidenced the above 6 characteristics of Americans and the Barns survey result showing Americans mistakenly thinking they are Christians. What a disgrace. The Church in America is today a neutered and irrelevant institution because the pastors are cowards and the power of God is denied. Why go to church, God’s obviously not there. The last place to find God is at a church on Sunday morning.
July 27, 2011
Lee 01 — don’t give up. Try SonLife Broadcasting on Direct TV – 344. They agree that the modern church is sick
and/or neutered. You will find anointed
music and preaching there. No coward and the power of God is taught, preached and lived. I promise
July 27, 2011
Lee Ol,
I frankly couldn’t have said it better myself.
Thanks for speaking the truth.
I would add deceived to the list.
But our fight is not against flesh and blood but against principalities, powers, spirtual wickedness in high places.
Which I might add this fight includes the systemic status-quo, control oriented, top-down hierarchy, clergy~laity distinction, pastor dominated, church as we know it.
It is controling christians, and stealing all of the money from the Ekklesia to be able to function properly.
Barna Groups data is showing a complete and utter breakdown of the present system of doing christianity from performing what we are commissioned to do by Jesus Christ.
It is a systemic problem, and the Holy Spirit is bypassing the status-quo model and reestablishing first century apostolic-prophetic founded christianity.
May this man made religious edifice die a quick death.
Stop asking God to bless what you are doing!
And start doing what God is blessing!
July 27, 2011
Wondering if you noticed growth in other religions in the US. Are folks replacing Christianity with other faiths?
July 27, 2011
Tim,
Of course people are turning somewhere else besides a tepid, toothless, powerless, dysfunctional, church as we know it.
Until we start doing what Paul/Peter/Barnabas/Apollos/James/John and the boys were doing.
What were they continually doing?
Equipping people for apostolic ministry by: constantly devoting themselves to the apostles teaching, to prayer, breaking bread together, taking their property and selling it and laying it at the apostles feet, everyone had their needs met and everyone had everything in common, the ground shook, everyone kept feeling a sense of awe, many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles, they began selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone had need, day by day continuing with one mind in the temple and house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart, and the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.
VS
We have a guy that we hire full time and pay him a salary and build a nice big building and he does the religion there in that building for a couple hours on a Sunday morning and everybody gets mad if he sermonizes past high noon because they will have to wait in a big long line at the local diner, but we all sit dumb mutes while the pulpiteer drones on about something that we can’t remember a week from now, and we are not able to peep one sound during the liturgical written in stone control mechanism, and we hear the professional musicians and singers for our listening entertainment in our auditorium seating in our consumer religion, and 80 cents of every dollar collected is used for clergy salary and big building used for a couple hours a week totally robbing the money for the church to do what it is actually supposed to do as detailed above by Paul and the boys!!!
Yeah I would say people are going elsewheres for their religion.
July 27, 2011
I am not quite as pessimistic as Lee is about where the Church is or is headed, though I do have many concerns. I will say my husband and I have had to battle through some tough times in recent years of watching a Spirit-filled micro-community of believers (our church changed the Sunday School moniker to ABC— Adult Bible Community) disintegrate mostly because of poor leadership and church politics. That cannot be extrapolated out to an over-arching principle, but was a localized thing. We realize now we may never again see that kind of fellowship and discipleship at work in our rather large church.
In retrospect, that class of believers represented a sweet season of life for us. We loved each other, prayed with and for each other and were the Church for each other. Jesus Christ was at the center of it all. The same thing happened a second time when we believed we had found another class we could both serve in and grow in with people we loved. It hurt to suddenly find ourselves uncoupled from this close fellowship. But it is not the end of life as we know it. Who knows what God is going to do now? We are open to His leading.
We love our church and feel deeply tied to the body there. We are in a place where we are praying and seeking discernment on how God will move us to serve the body now. We considered leaving for another church, but we believe that is not God’s will for us.
I personally have grown spiritually in recent years in spite of — perhaps because of — this disappointment. It has drawn me to the throne room of my Lord. I know God wants us united in harmony as believers and not fragmented into “schools” of belief about how church should be done. He wants us drawn to Him and to the Word through Christ (and to Christ through the Word), above all. If it takes knocking a leg off our comfortable stools now and then, so be it.
When I attend worship services and “Sunday School” today, I am not fixated on how “popular” the preacher/teacher is, how erudite or simple the message is or how great the music is, although I can be transported to the gates of heaven at a moment’s notice by any or all of these. I am there to make a statement that I am part of the body, imperfect as it is. I am there to meet and corporately worship God. And I never fail to find what I seek because I am not seeking to be “fed” something that was better than I may have received the week before, for what it’s worth. I am there to offer my allegiance to my Lord, and to be ready to follow that still, small voice in ministering to the body or to someone who may be seeking Him. I am there to faithfully serve Him! I do have to seek forgiveness now and then for slipping into the other mode, to be sure.
Let me add that I do find myself in awesome wonder and in a worshipful mode throughout the week as I am doing the simplest and most mundane of things. And I am grateful that God has brought me to that point in my growth. I can thank a number of pastors and Sunday School teachers, going all the way back to infancy, for being available to God in shaping my life. And as one who also was a wandering prodigal for a while, I can appreciate even more deeply what Christ has done for me. Frankly, I think we sometimes get hung up on the idea that we must be the Holy Spirit to others instead of allowing the Spirit to speak to their hearts through our intercession. I also am burdened for the many people in our churches who feel they cannot be authentic in sharing their burdens as they may first have to get over some imaginary transom to be “acceptable.”
Thanks for letting me share my heart on this subject. I could say more, but this is quite enough.
July 27, 2011
Debbie, I could not possibly add more to your lovely and centered comments about your own experience (they closely echo and parallel my own).
Yours reminded me of D. Bonhoeffer’s thoughts in *Life Together* (“Innumerable times a whole Christian community has broken down because it had sprung from a wish dream.”)
Lord, spare us from wish dreams.
July 27, 2011
I love Bonhoeffer, Greg. I am overwhelmingly speechless that you think what I have said here may evoke any comparison to him. Humbling. I have been privileged to write about him.
July 27, 2011
I haven’t read all of the comments posted, but there is a real problem in the church when everyone has to defend their faith position. We forget the analogy of the human body that Paul uses to instruct the Corinthians when they were arguing over the gifts of the Holy Spirit. There will always be differences of opinions, but we will also always be known by our love for one another.
Arguing over “church” is fruitless. We, the people are the church that Jesus Christ loves, died for and will return for, not a building or an organization. Going to church has become what Christians do, rather than simply being Christ to those around us at ALL times. There are so many other points that can be made, but what I have learned is that we only change when we discover these things personally. If not, they only become points of contention that cause more harm than good.
July 27, 2011
Dr Paul Taylor,
Do you agree that there is a very clear systemic problem with the church as we know it model?
Do you believe this system is actually hindering the ekklesia from doing and functioning as it is called to?
For example could you show me the modern pastor as we all presently know him in the New Testament?
Could you show me the the goals and measure of what success means to that modern pastor, in the New Testament?
July 27, 2011
Debbie Thurman,
Hi!
You wrote: “…Adult Bible Community) disintegrate mostly because of poor leadership and church politics. That cannot be extrapolated out to an over-arching principle, but was a localized thing.”
I disagree. It can and is “extrapolated out to an over-arching principle.”
It is not just a “localized thing.”
I have planted churches starting in 1973.
It happened exactly so, then.
It happens exactly so, now.
Ephesians 6:10-24. Do you think this Scripture only applies to the world? Or could it apply to “church as we know it” equally as well?
It has been said that insanity is doing the same thing over again, expecting a different result.
The problem is systemic, we seem to drag the same system into a so-called “new work” expecting a different outcome?
Jesus called it putting new wine into old wineskins.
If I had to choose rule #1 for a prospective leader in the Ekklesia it would be: Is he (leader) truly dead? Is he dead to self? Is he dead to ego? Is he dead to his agenda, but intent with sole purpose of mind on God’s? Mark 8:31-38.
Rule # 2 for the prospective leader in the ekklesia would be: Matt 20:25-28; Luke 22:25-26;
Matt 23:8-12; Phil 2:1-10.
Rule #3 for the prospective leader in the Ekklesia is: function is not office. Gift to the Body of Christ is not position. You are an apostle because you are apostolic, you are a prophet because you are prophetic, you are an elder because you eld. They are not office or position, but a function, big, big difference.
The devil went to church and set up a control system. It has been in place for about 1700 years. It is a systemic problem.
George Barna and Frank Viola nailed it down in a book. It is called “Pagan Christianity?”
I highly recommend it.
July 27, 2011
Hmmm… I see a lot of people here trying to “sell” their “experiences” as being the key to all the solutions that the church is having.
Not sure that is the key.
The Word is the key… but we teach it really bad.
July 27, 2011
Church as an “experience”? I do like the dictionary’s definition of the verb form of the word: “encounter, meet, come into contact with, come across, come up against, face, be faced with.”
As Buckethead Baptist said, it’s “the Word” we need to “experience.” Through the clear preaching of it, we encounter the living God. From His lips to our ears/heart via the Holy Spirit. Through our personal study of God’s Word (that’s a self-discipline thing that no one can make us do) we come to know more and more of Christ. I guess it is only at the point of enough saturation of convicting Scriptural truth, along with a good dose of life, that we can be crucified with him.
What tends to send people to their knees, crying out to God? Gut-wrenching pain and suffering … relational conflict … a realization that life-as-usual (mostly self-centered) is not cutting it? When we pray/long to know Christ more deeply, we can expect suffering. It’s the door (“blessed are the poor in spirit”) most of us have to walk through. Lucky us! We get to teach the unchurched that in a postmodern, I-want-it-all-now world.
We have plenty of pain to sort through among our brothers and sisters. We can put our church faces on or get down-in-the-trenches real with each other. Do rank-and-file Christians need “leaders” to show us how to do that? Or do we show them by loving each other and living, breathing “church” every day? Grace and truth = discipleship. It’s really not complicated. But it’s hard.
Just tossin’ it out there.
July 28, 2011
Dr. Paul Taylor,
You wrote: “…,But there is a real problem in the church when everyone has to defend their faith position.”
My brother Dr. Taylor, I would remind you that this is a blog on the internet, for the purpose of responding to a topic brought up for discussion about scientifically collected data about christianity. On this blog I assume that free exchange of idea’s between christians of all stripes to freely dialogue and not become easily offended is perfectly legitimate as we are instructed by Scripture to do so.
No one is questioning your faith in Jesus Christ or your place in His Body.
But prepare to have your behavior discussed within that Body. It is Scriptural that we do so.
You wrote: “We forget the analogy of the human body that Paul uses to instruct the Corinthians when they were arguing over the gifts of the Holy Spirit.”
If memory serves me correctly I believe Paul’s letters to the Corinthians were primarily in response to arguing over which apostle “they were of”. And Paul was very upset about that division within the Body and dealt very firmly with that. He (Paul) then instructed the Corinthians on the use of the gifts of the Holy Spirit within the assemblies. Paying particular attention to 1 Corin 14:24-26 on how the normal, average assembly is to proceed according to Paul. Oddly enough in my 38 year experience of visiting conventional churches widely across America, I have never seen that average description of Paul’s implemented, ever. Even more strange is I have never seen Paul’s description of an assembly implemented in a Pentacostal, Charismatic, or House Church as well? So, I conclude that we don’t argue about the gifts of the Holy Spirit that Paul instructed to use in the assembly because they are not allowed by the controlling leadership. They will not be fit into the liturgical mechanism.
You wrote: “There will always be differences of opinion, but we will also always be known by our love for one another.”
Slight, small, “differences of opinion” are one thing, and on insignificant matters should be avoided, I agree. But the issue Mr. Barna has brought up here is not slight, it is not small, it is surely not insignificant. Barna Group’s 20 year data is saying that church as we know it is failing and dwindling on all issues across all demographics.
This knowledge, in my opinion, is not about “differences of opinion” as you say. There are significant shifts in belief and behavior, and christians “known by our love” are voting with their feet. They are leaving the conventional status-quo. Are you not curious as to why? Should we not discuss this in a free open dialogue inclusive of all factions, and not become defensive or offended?
Love. Widely used term. Means different things to different groups. It is used currently within christianity with relativism. Currently within conventional christianity it is expressed with a smile and a friendly greet for the two hour Sunday get together at the sacred building. Some christian groups even go as far as to actually hug one another or put their arm around one another. The reason why I say relativism is because of the historical Biblical record of Acts 2:39, 41-47; Acts 4:31-37; Acts 5:40-42; Acts 6:1-8.
The first century christians had a different Philio than we, were not even in the same assembly.
They sold all of their possessions and distributed to any who had need. They shared their meals together daily. They met from house to house daily. They gave up their lives for one another.
You wrote: “Arguing over church is fruitless.”
Dialogue is not arguing! Investigating the fruit of the church is vital. Having open dialogue on the lack of fruit in the church is vital. Sweeping obvious dysfunction under the rug is cowardly. Calling into question man’s tradition that has no root in the New Testament is not arguing. Especially when it is perceived by an ever growing, grass roots, ground swell, that the conventional control oriented, top-down hierarchy, model is the problem. It is actually hindering true Ekklesia from happening. I would state it like this: The current over-arching conventional model of doing church is fruitless. Clergy control is fruitless.
You wrote: “…But what I have learned is that we only change when we discover these things personally.”
I believe that is actually occuring here by open dialogue. How does one find these things out unless there is honest, open, free, dialogue amongst brethren, in light of revealed Scripture.
You wrote: “If not, they only become points of contention that causes more harm than good.”
We are clearly instructed to “contend for the faith.” IMHO I truly believe the faith was hijacked approximately 1700 years ago, from the foundation of the apostles and prophets, by man. IMHO conventional methodology of christianity has no Biblical basis. Conventional christianity reads it’s experience back into the Bible, rather than it’s experience being read from the Bible. I would love to dialogue the particulars with you, my brother in Christ.
July 28, 2011
Yo. MichaelO… yeah… I’m trying to figure out what Augustine did too.
Seems like most of the problems that we’re dealing with… started with him.
I can draw you a line of “connect the dots” from Augustine to Westboro Baptist.
July 28, 2011
Bucket,
As to the issue where we got off track in the church.
I am of the opinion that a biggy was Constantine and his mommy, with good intentions.
Augustine has some issues, with good intentions.
There were many contributors, with good intentions.
Actually there were some Jews following behind Paul who sowed the seeds of heresy and division.
They all were trying to help God out, with the best of intentions.
Ultimately it is a man control issue that satan is behind, that got us off track and keeps us off track.
It always comes down to man/men trying through one mechanism or another to gain control, get power, driven by demons.
Good is often the enemy of best or truth.
God has left a document that we need to adhere to in the New Testament.
There is a record of Jesus inspired apostolic foundation christianity and we are looking over the simplicity of the historical New Testament record.
Our leaders must be dead. Dead to self, dead to ego, dead to agendas.
They must hear God, and do what God says, revealed in His Word, and in His Holy Spirit.
God knows where He is going with this whole thing. He is totally capable. He doesn’t need anyones help in figuring it out. He doesn’t need advice.
He needs those who will stay dead to their good intentions, be obediant, listen and do what He says when He says it.
July 29, 2011
MichaelO…
Dude… that’s way to Pie in the Sky to warrant much affirmation.
I’ve been dead once. Then… I woke up. When I woke up… the Baptists asked me to leave.
Alive is better. God died so that we might have life… not death.
You know who wants you dead? Catch a clue… it ain’t God.
July 30, 2011
MichaelO speaks clear doctrine, to my ears, in his comment just above. Have we lost so soon the concept of dying to self?
July 31, 2011
Buckethead Baptist,
You wrote: “thats way to Pie in the Sky to warrant much affirmation.”
In the kingdom of God first you die then you live. (Mark 8:34-38).
You wrote: “When I woke up…the Baptists asked me to leave.”
Fortunate for you! Just think you could still be sitting there warming a pew, a dumb mute in the audience being pounded with the “come forward and accept Jesus” getting saved every weekend over and over and over, and castigated because you haven’t been dragging more lost souls into the barn to “get saved” to be a Baptist.
They did you a favor. You should feel fortunate.
I have been kicked out of a few churches. And thank God they did. It wasn’t for anything bad. It was because I would step out in my gifting and ministry and the clergy hierarchy always perceived it as a threat to their authority. When the truth of the matter was I didn’t want their gig or their sheep. It gave me cold chills just thinking about being trapped in their precarious hierarchical position. But my ministry on the street to street people or the poor, or orphans doesn’t fit into the status-quo church’s target audience because the poor don’t have anything to tithe. Besides they don’t smell good, they have too many problems, they aren’t a part of the happy clappy demographic they are looking for.
You wrote: “Alive is better.”
I agree. But we have that part down pat.
It’s all you hear. Everybody has that message.
It’s the dead part we haven’t got.
It starts with dead. (John 12:25-26.)
“Except a grain of wheat fall into the earth and dies, it remains by itself alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.” (John 12:24) The problem in christianity is the undead walking around in their own agendas and plans that aren’t Gods plans or agenda.
They are either entertaining you, or tapping into your western guilt complex, to motivate you to cough up the bucks to support their agenda.
George Barna’s topic is revealing in that current methods of christianity are not producing nor are they growing in belief or behavior. Christianity at present worldwide is losing ground instead of gaining.
It is this “alive” man in his strength and good ideas. This alive man who is doing what he thinks is a good idea.
Jesus said: “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son does in like manner.” (John 5:19)
If Jesus did only what He saw the Father doing, then who do we think we are going off in our good ideas and strength doing things?
Going off in their own good ideas is what got Adam and Eve in trouble at the tree, Cain with Abel, Sarah with Hagar and Ishmael, Jacob with Esau, the sons of Jacob with Joseph, Moses killing the Egyptian in his strength, the Golden calf, the defeat at Ai, Joshua dies and Israel serves the Baals, the people chooses Saul because he looked good and was tall, Peter ignoring the Gentiles when a group of christian Jews came from Jerusalem to Antioch Syria, the Corinthians dividing off according to which apostle preached the Gospel to them, Judiaizers followed Paul from place to place saying christians must observe the law and be circumcised along with believing on Jesus, Constantine making christianity the Roman State official certified religion, Augustine with funny doctrines, Roman catholics cannonizing intertestament books, doctrine, practice, relics and tradition, Luther and Calvins reformation just switching the furniture around in the Roman catholic edifice, Pentacostalism, Charismaticism, Evangelicism, House church, doing the same by just rearranging furniture from Roman catholicism.
It kept the clergy~ laity distinction, liturgy, money habits, furniture, hierarchy.
It got rid of the apostles and prophets, apostolic itinerant ministry, miracles/wonders/signs/deliverance of demons, co-equal everything in common brotherhood where everybody participates everybody functions, equipping the saints for the work of the ministry,
Mans brilliant ideas fall short from what Jesus came and established and passed on to His apostles and prophets as the foundation of the church.
It is a systemic problem, we keep dragging the mans system into each new mans idea.
This is Jesus Church and He taught the original apostles what He wanted.
It is not what we are currently doing.
Barna Groups data bears this out.
July 31, 2011
Hi
Where can I order a copy of your statistical data? I am doing my Masters project on church attendance and leadership. I sent an email on your site but I haven’t heard back.
thanks
Jonathan
August 1, 2011
MichaelO,
Not a lot of disagreement will you hear from me on that post…
Though you won’t see me into self-flagellation either… because people see “Die to Sin everyday” as… beat yourself up with guilt.
Screw that. If I didn’t get saved from the guilt… then my salvation was worthless.
The way I understand it, Forgiveness of sin, removes guilt… or commutes my sentence to one of “Not guilty”… at that point… anybody (or thing) that suggests I feel guilty… is just trying to bring me down.
I’ve decided that that is a technique used by the accuser of the brethern… (and Pastors)… not to be listened to anymore.
August 1, 2011
A couple of questions.
Question 1: Is there any connection between the idea that many Boomers “returned” to church and “plugged in” when they had kids and the Boomer “exit” now that the kids are out of or leaving the nest? The level of participation of Boomers may be a reflection of what was always true–that they became involved for their children, but once the children aren’t the focus anymore, the Boomers are leaving.
Question 2: Is there any connection between the drop in Sunday School attendance and the idea that a whole generation of people grew up understanding church as basically “fun” and “entertainment-oriented” via the emphasis on activitiy-based “social” experiences in cildren’s and youth programs? Spending 18+ years being taught that church is one thing could explain the failure to transition into a more “study-oriented” framework, yes?
Question 3: Is the Elder data connected to the shift in their housing? As this group ages, they may be moving to a new location or setting, and the options for church attendance may be driving the data, yes?
August 2, 2011
BHB said, “Though you won’t see me into self-flagellation either… because people see “Die to Sin everyday” as… beat yourself up with guilt.”
If that is indeed what most people think, then the church has had a major failing and the culture has overridden it.
How can people who do not understand the basic doctrines of Christianity properly witness the gospel and disciple others? Where are we in the “Church Age”? The gates of hell cannot prevail against the church of Christ, but have we gotten about as far as we are going to go? Can we only navel-gaze now?
August 3, 2011
Hey Debbie… most of those are rhetorical questions you asked.
To answer you … Nope… we don’t teach the Gospel anymore… we teach legalism.
Discipleship… has come to mean.. legalism…
The first time the Gospel was presented… it was a Prophecy lesson (The Emmaus Road bible study)… today… Prophecy/ Prophets are invited to go visit another church.
We do not take the bible seriously anymore.
Let me prove it to you… Go look at the maps in your bible… your most newly purchased bible… tell me… where do they show Mt. Sinai?
Now… go read Galatians 4:25…
Then… Google “Jabal Al Lawz”
You know why Mt. Sinai is shown in your Bible Map to be in Egypt? Because Constantine’s Mother said that’s where it is… and she was never there.
The Bible is a Great book! Lemme know when we start teaching it again.
August 4, 2011
“The Bible is a Great book! Lemme know when we start teaching it again.”
It’s far more than a great book. Shucks, I think I may have written one of those.
Who is “we”, by the way? I guess no one is stopping you and me from teaching it, are they?
My pebble, your pebble and a few others can make some significant ripples.
“Do not despise prophetic utterances.” Paul said. I don’t. But we are to “test the spirits by the Spirit.” I do know a lot of people are put off by what passes for prophecy today since it may not be genuinely Spirit-driven. As you see discipleship watered down to legalism, so do some others see latter-day prophecy as another form of legalism. Now, I do indeed believe Christ could be speaking a message for the churches through his saints today. But he gave the definitive prophetic message in Revelation.
Prophecy (which some may call acute spiritual discernment) is but one spiritual gift. There are others that the body needs. Authentic Bible teaching will make that clear. Of course, you may be referring more to the unfilled prophecies of the New Testament. In which case, we’d do well to remember Christ’s warnings to the archetypal churches in Revelation.
We can major on minors or major on majors. The former is what keeps the Church divided against itself, in many regards. And that is the deceitful work of old Slewfoot.
August 11, 2011
Ms. Debbie,
I doth perceive that thou know a thing or two about Prophets.
August 12, 2011
LOL. Maybe just a thing or two. I can easily get way over my head. Those waters drop off sharply before one wades too far into them.
August 12, 2011
Ms. Debbie,
I invite you to come study with us at http://www.studycenter.com
August 13, 2011
Buckethead Baptist,
I went onto Chuck Misslers site but could get no info unless I filled out a detailed questionaire of all of my personal contact info, which I do not like to do because normally I get canvassed hard for MONEY by christian religious groups with this ploy.
I did notice that everything cost money.
I travel in christian circles where everything is free and freely shared where everyone shares freely what the Lord has given and provided. Misslers site is typical that they are marketing the Gospel.
I think Jesus Christ become very angry with that sort of mindset in the Temple and ran the marketers out.
I was not impressed.
August 15, 2011
I appreciate the kind invitation, BHB. FWIW, I also like to read commentaries here: http://www.soniclight.com/constable/notes.htm
August 3, 2011
How representative is the sample? I read recently that some 30 percent of U.S.households have no landline telephone, and that men, Hispanics and the poor are more likely to use only cell phones. So these groups are likely underrepresented in telephone polling.
August 3, 2011
As I review these trends, I have to wonder how you factor in the fact that those who have gone on to be with the Lord were simply more committed, and took thier faith seriously. People of today compartmentaliaze their lives. And I fear that way too many are the victums of soft preaching that tickles the ear rather than challenging our faith.
Too, too many people today have a false sense of salvation because too few pastors challenge their people’s faith Show me the fruit!
August 13, 2011
Buckethead Baptist,
Isn’t Missler a dispensationalist?
What is Misslers position on returning to apostolic-prophetic flat co-equal leadership?
What is Misslers position on tithe to a singular pastor, and how finances are to be handled within the christian community?
August 20, 2011
To George Barna:
You defined people who are “born again” “based on their belief that they will experience eternal salvation based on their commitment to Jesus Christ, personal confession of sins, and acceptance of Christ as their savior,” Do YOU believe this is the correct definition or is this simply your way of classifying people statistically because that is what THEY believe it means?
Doesn’t this point to part of the problem? More people are claiming to be born again, but their lifestyles are less Christian. How can that be?
It is easy to “commit yourself to Jesus Christ” without much definition about what that means. Such generalized commitments without an understanding of the necessary behavioral follow-through’s are like New Years’ resolutions to “do better.” It is not hard to confess your sins. Everyone feels a little guilty. And why not accept Christ as your Savior? What hard choices or lifestyle change does this require? Now you have fire insurance at no cost.
Isn’t part of the problem that this “Gospel” makes an initial “commitment to Christ”–whatever the person who makes it thinks it means–the essential thing and everything afterward voluntary and without the need for accountability? Is it really any surprise that this leads to rising claims about being born again and declining Christian behavior?
August 20, 2011
Ron,
Big distinction in the Bible between a “believer” and a “disciple”.
The “original” twelve chosen by Jesus I would say 11 were “disciples” and one was a “believer”, who had a bit of a money problem.
A believer mouths some words and buys the eternal fire insurance policy, is a consumer religionist, a dumb mute in the Sunday show, tithing to a singular star in the pulpit sermonizing something nobody remembers a week from now in the big expensive building with the steeple on top that gets used a couple hours a week.
A disciple is a convinced, sold out all the way, leaves all, follows wherever it leads, is a co-equal amongst equals functioning in their gifting, loses and abstains from the control freakism dominant in the status-quo, allows the Holy Spirit to take him into the desert and die dead to self, and is raised to newness of life by doing Gods will not his own will, stops sinning, and loves people into the kingdom discipling them thereby multiplying himself.
We are called to preach the Gospel to the poor and make disciples not believers, heal the sick, raise the dead, freely we received freely give.
The following denote the disciple as opposed to the believer:
Matt 4:20; 22; Matt 6:19-34; Matt 10:34-40; Matt 20:25-28; Mark 1:18, 20; Mark 7:1-13; Mark 10:28-31; Mark 10:42-45; Mark 12:38-44; Luke 5:11; Luke 8:11-15, Luke 8:19-21; Luke 9:23-26; Luke 9:46-48; Luke 9:57-62;
Luke 10:1-42 is the program of Jesus for making disciples, not the man made programs that are called discipleship programs in the conventional church as we know it. This Luke 10 program is the only one that works.
Luke 12:13-34; Luke14:25-33; Luke 18:18-30; Acts 2: 39-47; Acts 4: 31-35; Acts 6: 1-8.
A believer has his life and his job and his family and his religion and is busy with that “first”. And tithes to the hired religionist and pays his salaries and for the big sacred building to do the religion in one day a week for a couple hours and 80 cents of every dollar goes to that but no discipling goes on locally or regionally or to the nations, but 14 aspects of belief and behavior languish and there is a lukewarm tepidness.
A disciple lost his life but found it in the process and has Jesus first and is a bond slave to a King in a monarchy and the money is laid at the feet of a regional apostolic ekklesia and is distributed as shown in Acts, the needs being met in the ekklesia first where everyone has everything in common and apostolic ministry goes on of discipling locally, regionally, and to the nations.
August 23, 2011
MichaelO,
Where in the Bible is there the idea that we can be “believers” (that presumably go to heaven) but not “disciples”? Do you really get “eternal fire insurance” just by mouthing “some words”? Did Judas go to heaven? He is called a thief, the “son of perdition” and it was said that it would be better for him if he had not been born. Are those consistent with being a heaven-bound “believer”? If Judas is in heaven, who is in hell?
August 24, 2011
Brother Ron,
I couldn’t agree with you more.
It is “ALL” or none IMHO!
August 29, 2011
Brother Ron,
Would you agree the conventional status-quo church leaves their members baby christians on milk, unequipped, undiscipled, vulnerable, no vision, immature, believers, who bear little or no fruit?
And their leaders powerless entertainers producing product for consumers that come to church just like the supermarket for food or Wal-Mart for consumer products.
September 3, 2011
I found your article interesting, but I worry about the numbers of people surveyed. 1,000 people in a country of 260 million people is a tiny percentage and I am sure does not take into account, the growing number of Hispanics, the numbers of Indians, the differences between rural, urban, poor, middle class, east vs west, the so-called Bible belt’ and the north, the mega churches and the average size churches, etc, etc. A lot larger sample is required to get a true picture.
September 4, 2011
Greg Fletcher,
I would inquire are you a statitician, a polling expert?
Do you understand polling demographics?
Are all 260 Million Americans christians (in reality I wonder if 260,000. are)?
Support your statement that “a lot larger sample is required…” Why do you say that, specifically?
The numbers I worry about is a shrinking christianity in America, as opposed to a vital rapid expansion.