The Gallup Organization has evaluated the public’s confidence in institutions for four decades. Their most recent annual survey on this matter showed that Americans are continuing to lose confidence in churches and organized religion. While religious institutions were among the most revered organizations in the land for many years (topping the list some years), we are now in a situation where less than half all adults (48%) have “a great deal of confidence” or “quite a lot of confidence” in churches. Earlier in my lifetime, three out of four adults had such a degree of trust in religious institutions.
Shockingly little has been made of this decline. I think the widespread ambivalence about that decrease is, in itself, stunning. Perhaps the widespread disinterest reflects the confluence of several factors: people’s growing disinterest in organized religion, the frog in the kettle syndrome (the decline has been consistently small each year, but over the course of time has added up to a substantial loss), the frequent denial of bad news by church leaders, the comparatively larger short-term gains and losses of other institutions capturing the imagination of the media, etc.
I’d encourage you to pause and think about the significance of losing people’s confidence. A leader can only sustain forward movement if he/she has the confidence of the people being led into battle. Now, if a church is simply providing a safe comfort station for hurting people, that’s one thing. But if a church is intent upon facilitating a moral and spiritual revolution, recognizing that doing so is a declaration of war on current cultural preferences and values, the loss of confidence is a devastating setback. And – strategically – such confidence cannot be restored by simply waiting for the tide to turn; church leaders must intentionally win back people’s confidence through visionary leadership, holy character, and guiding people in transformational ministry efforts.
Barna Group research has shown that during the past decade, not surprisingly, the Roman Catholic Church has suffered the greatest loss of public confidence. But the Protestant Church has struggled, too. The two generations of adults (Busters and Mosaics) now assuming a substantial share of positions of leadership in the Church think and live very differently than their predecessors – and have divergent expectations related to faith, institutions and leaders. No church is immune to the morphing needs and expectations that challenge all organized groups.
Today’s a good day to realistically assess how much trust and confidence your community has in your leadership and in that of your ministry. Ask yourself questions about people’s understanding of, passion for and engagement with the vision; the efficacy of the strategy you rely upon to pursue the vision; people’s ownership of the proposed process for transforming the world; the efficiency with which your ministry engages the world; the effectiveness and openness of your communications about the cause and your progress; and the utility of the measures you rely upon to evaluate transformation.
September 6, 2010
This is a GREAT discussion! MIchael O, you are dead on right “It is all about control.” Centralized control, I might add. I wondered for years why I never felt fulfilled in church. Participation helps, but there is still something missing. It’s the control that kills fulfillment. I have to do things their way, according to their rules, and fit the neat little box they (clergy) have made for me.
I worked with kids for ten years and loved it (they did too), but the Church then imposed all kinds of rules, ostensibly to “protect the children”. It was really about protecting the church from lawsuits or other legal action. That killed my participation. Now it’s dangerous for me to work with kids because if I even accidentally get accused of something my life is essentially over. The rules make it too easy to get accused of things, especially when so many women have a quick trigger accusation reflex when it comes to kids. When churches exercise this kind of control, it kills ministry to save the institution. And this is only one example. Pastors will insist they have to have rules to protect the institution because “protecting the institution protects the ministry”. This equating of protecting the institution to protect the ministry seems to be pretty common. Again, it is about control, not ministry.
A lot of comments have been made about local ministry by a group of believers that are led by the holy spirit, but most of it was about doing fairly innocuous things to help people. Nothing wrong with that, but how about this: A group of believers get together to remove an evil local judge, or shut down an abortion clinic. There are no lack of opportunities for something like this. How about a rotten police chief or school board official? This is taking on the devil where it counts. If a group of believers get together to do something like this, you will get serious, and deadly, opposition. I’m not saying do a stupid protest outside his office or write letters. I’m talking about fasting and praying for days or weeks, or longer, seeking God about what to do, and when he tells you, do it. This will require regular meetings, progress reports, looking out for infiltration by spies, media attacks, attacks from the Church (of course) who are led by the 501(c)3 sycophants of Caesar, and attacks from friends who will tell you “the church shouldn’t be involved with politics!” But when you actually succeed in removing that evil individual (hopefully by leading him/her to salvation in Christ), you will have actually made a difference that counts and that other people can see and appreciate.
Any institutional church would NEVER, EVER do a thing like this, no matter how good or strong they were. The pastor wouldn’t dare allow it.
If an independent group of believers, however, took it on as a project to expose and destroy the cult that Dave was raised in, they could have succeeded and freed all those people from the abuse. Law enforcement doesn’t do this kind of thing. They are all too frequently part of it and likely participating in it. So if you take something like this on you are taking on the devil where he is strongest. There will be casualties. Some people will probably get killed in the process. Lives will be destroyed. The police will harass you. The attorney general will get after you and sue you. The media will destroy you. People you trust will turn on you. The devil does not pull punches when you start hitting him where it hurts. But God has the power to pull this kind of thing off. Does he have any Christians with the guts and commitment to take his power to the enemy with the intent to whip his backside once and for all and remove a cult like this from the face of the earth? Are you willing to give your life, your sacred honor, your fortune, your family, your health? It may cost that much.
This is where you learn how much control the devil has over our culture. You will be dealing with stark, evil, deadly reality and you will learn first hand the power of God and the power of the Devil. And you will find out where you really stand with God.
Others have fought this kind of battle and paid the prices mentioned above, and they have usually done it almost, if not, alone. It takes integrity of a kind that is rarely found to do this kind of thing, and finding a group of people who have this kind of integrity is nigh impossible, even among committed Christians. Is there any group of Christians out there who are willing to take on a project like this?
The fact that Christians, and institutional churches especially, have not taken on challenges like this is the reason our culture is dying.
September 7, 2010
Ken S,
Lovely stuff brother. The problem is the judge/abortion doctor/police chief/school board official you talk about was ushered in last Sunday to the “chief seats” by the “lay usher.” That way they can be seen in the crowd on the TV coverage for next weeks TV show on the religious channel beamed across the area.
I”ve always historically had trouble getting a ministry started within “a church” to help orphans, widows, poor, homeless, sick, indigent, elderly. I can’t imagine getting together a group of christians actually going after those fine upstanding members of the community sitting in the chief seats who are devouring the community in a myriad of ways.
If anyone would doubt the control issue, try to operate in your God given gifting within the tightly controled regimine of the
” Clergy dominated Order of Worship”. Or suggest starting a church outreach coupled with financial help to orphans or poor and just see what happens. It will be an eye opener for you. It doesn’t quite fit into the master plan for growing their church past that magical 200 member goal.
September 7, 2010
And this is why the church is weak and dying. Since centralized control is the order of the day, the centralized controllers (pastor, board, etc.) have a perceived obligation to maintain the institution, thereby emasculating any serious spirit-led ministry. Since the holy spirit has no interest in maintaining an institution, he goes directly for the jugular where ministry is concerned. It has long been a contention of mine that ministry is “touching people where they hurt”. I think that is the holy spirit’s intent in any ministry, and the pastor’s intent is to build an empire. Touching people where they hurt risks upsetting the “judge/abortion doctor/police chief/school board official” who makes such nice contributions to the institution, and that would threaten the pastor’s empire. Even so, spirit-led people leave and go elsewhere, so you end up with a nice-looking, nice-smelling, entertaining, but apostate institutional church.
I will not be sorry to see the government shut down churches and force them to curtail their preaching or go out of business. Maybe it’s sinful, but part of me wants to see these institutional abominations burn to the ground so God’s people can be free to really minister to each other and those who really need it without institutional interference. Too many Christians still think these abominations are a good thing.
September 7, 2010
Ken S,
When I still went to pastor run steeple buildings. Quite often I would take a homeless person with who happened to be living with the wife and I. It was interesting to see the reactions of the christians to the smell and appearence of the homeless, and the poor. Also homosexual couples who we might be sharing the Gospel with. Leathered up Bikers were a novelty for them too. It is hard to find regular christians to “cross” food, clothes, school supplies, furniture, bedding, money, across the border into Old Mexico to orphanages. So we have to make christians who will. Normal christians (whatever that is) and normal churches (whatever that is) don’t seem to be interested in helping folks who can’t help back. It doesn’t fit the successful church model and fill the kitty. We have a control issue. And we have a serve issue, if it don’t serve back by generating those proper demographics of young couples with kids gamefully employed tithers who look good and promote a nice family picture to promote the modern status-quo model. I find that demographic to busy and distracted for the most part to take the Gospel into the highways and byways to the poor and hurting and those who need it.
Wrong demographic in the clergyed up steeple buildings.
I have found the pretty little church on every street corner USA to be full of folks who have bought a life assurance policy got their salvation package and are fulfilling the weekly requirement, for the most part. Not all, but most. That is not making a judgement but purely observation from a talent scout perspective, and likely Gospel recipient potential disciple.
The clergy/pastor for the most part is working the model of what he has been told or observed what success is in the religion game, which means doing certian things to produce numbers over 200 weekly attenders. 200 is that magic number that makes the religious world turn. I’m not into it.
The framework is completly utterly wrong for producing disciples of Pauls model who went out and turned the world on it’s head and got the Commission done. It was done with just a few numbers. It is probably the 80/20 rule. Maybe less.
November 4, 2010
I can see why one is compelled to take action concerning corruption police, judge, etc., but often it appears to me, that when Christians do, they make little impact. Take abortion for example, There have been many Christian’s protesting outside the clinic through the years, yet the majority woman proceed into the clinic. I want to hear about the Christian working inside the clinic, day in and day out as a faithful employee, not looking for for force God at every opportunity, yet waiting for God before they speak. No doubt they would find they needed to remain silent in many cases, however, the would not break attention to their failure, but in seeking God’s timing there is attention brought to light in that success. If they are speaking a moment of God’s Word truly given to people would change.
September 7, 2010
You and I are on the same page. I go out of my way to help homeless or other people who genuinely need help. My policy is not to offer money, but help. That clears out the freeloaders early on. After I know someone and where they stand, I may give money. Our church is near some areas where homeless people hang out, and they used to come into the church to get free coffee and hang out. I would talk to them and offer help, sometimes taking them back to their home under the bridge after feeding them and maybe buying some clothes or a duffel bag for them. All of that stopped after a while, though. I saw one of the church staffers giving hell to one of the homeless guys for asking for money. What is he supposed to do? Just sit there while he’s starving and has no place to stay and just mope? This is a church, for God’s sake! How about some love? Well, it soon became apparent that these homeless folks were unwelcome, because they stopped showing up. Now there is one homeless lady who shows up on Sunday because she’s polite and doesn’t hit people up for money. She comfortably (somewhat, anyway) fits the status quo and doesn’t threaten the empire.
I sit in church on Sunday and listen to really good, meaty sermons about living the Christian life and wonder where the challenge to the culture is. We have an abortion clinic right across the parking lot. I have suggested a number of times that we take action to deal with it by praying about it for a while and then taking whatever action God indicates. I was informed that that is not part of what we do as a church. I also received a five minute diatribe about why Planned Parenthood was a good thing for women. This was from a so-called evangelical church.
I am just biding my time, waiting for God to move me to a small group of believers who give a damn about challenging the culture and making a difference. The institutional church is a spiritual wasteland and most folks think it’s an oasis.
September 8, 2010
Ken S,
Yes, you and I and millions of others are on the same page. And I too tried to work within the framework of modern western christianity to no avail.
They (modern western christianity) has a different agenda, worldview, goals and aspirations. Putting effort into demographics that can’t feed the coffers, who require spiritual triage, and don’t look pretty, don’t fit the scheme. They want people who tithe, don’t require maintenance, who invite others just like them to boost the numbers, and sit quietly a mute, listening to the pastor sermonize, and enjoy the musical entertainment, and don’t gripe. They have a ministry to grow and fit in or leave!
May I suggest a succession of three books to focus the thinking?
1 “Revolution”, George Barna.
2 “Pagan Christianity?”, Frank Viola, George Barna.
3 “Reimagining Church”, Frank Viola.
Ken S, you are going to have to do it yourself, if it is going to get done. You have been told you can’t.
I am telling you you can!
September 7, 2010
“When Catholicism goes bad it becomes the religion of amulets and holy places and priestcraft: Protestantism, in its corresponding decay, becomes a vague mist of ethical platitudes”
~ C.S Lewis
September 8, 2010
Brother B Crump,
I love it when you wax poetic Lewis.
I will put those lovely thoughts in my proverbial spiritual pipe and smoke them while imagining sitting around the table in the Pub with Lewis and the boys discussing the weightier issues of the faith.
September 8, 2010
Confidence in the Church is waning because people perceive it is not the place to go to encounter Jesus.
It is not the place that fosters an atmosphere of Jesus and help for their spiritual short comings, and life issues that bind them, and they want training to equip them to do their part to fulfill the Great Commission.
It (church) is someone else’s ministry, and they don’t feel welcome to freely participate in that ministry.
When expressing a desire to particiupate in the ministry they are relegated to the parking lot parking cars, or being a greeter, or, ushering people to seats and filling up the front of the sanctuary so it looks full on camera, or running a camera, or making tapes of the sermon, or mowing grass, or vacuming the carpet. Those things are nice but.
God has given gifts to men! Those everyday, common, lay, regular, average, non-seminaried, non-ordained, men, want to grow in their God given gifts.
They don’t want to be a greeter/usher! Thank you very much! They don’t want to hear another droning sermon. They want to be equiped and use their God given gift to promote Gods kingdom and not some guys ministry.
People are looking for an atmosphere of Jesus presence where they edify and are edified, where they build up and are built up. Where they can use their God given gifts in an atmosphere of nurturing and encouragement, and freedom and active participation. Not an atmosphere of mute observation and resistance to their developing spiritual maturity and active participation.
People don’t want to watch some guy operate his ministry anymore a mute observer. They want to be in process of developing theirs and helping others develop also in mutual respect and admiration and love.
If that has to happen in the top of a tree, or the middle of a lake, or at work, so be it.
There is no confidence in the status-quo western modern churchy model anymore for most people.
September 8, 2010
I’ve already read Pagan Christianity and Reimagining Church. They began to crystallize my thinking on this subject. I’ll have to get Revolution and read it.
I think we understand what the church is about. I don’t think we’re going to change the mind of Christendom, though. God will have to do that, and I’m afraid the only way that will happen is with judgment. Sorry to say, but the priests and pharisees won’t give up control without God destroying their edifices. There’s a reason the temple was destroyed in 70 AD. It’s the same reason the modern church will be destroyed, but it won’t just be one location. it will be a lot of locations. I think that’s when the great falling away happens, but it won’t really be a falling away. It will be a mass recognition that “hey, I believe in God, but not at this price!”
September 9, 2010
Ken
the question for me is how will the institution be destroyed. I think that institutional churches are dying in lots of locations, but definitely not in all, at this time.
What I see happening is the aging and emptying of the congregations. They leave behind edifices where their churches once met. The trouble is that many in our culture have
1 mis-identified buildings as churches.
2 come to expect that the congregations in those buildings will always be there to serve them when they need a service
I look arround and I see the buildings emptying with barely a whimper, meanwhile the Body of Christ reforms itself.
thanks for the post
john
September 9, 2010
And that is good news. As the institutions fail and empty, the body of Christ increasingly meets in homes around the person of Christ himself, not a pastor or designated leader, and the holy spirit leads whoever he wishes to share, sing, pray, meet a need, cook a meal, or whatever. The order of the meeting is quite frequently different, but always spiritual and always centered on Christ. Needs are met and hearts set aflame with the glory of god and a fire for true and meaningful ministry..
At least that is the vision I have and I understand it actually does happen sometimes. It will be very difficult for pastors to let go of their position and allow this kind of thing to happen. I think they will have a strong tendency to take control of home meetings.
I’m waiting for the Lord to bring something like this to my area, because I am quite fed up with churches.
September 9, 2010
Ken:
Just a gentle nudge: there may be no reason to wait any longer, perhaps the Lord is ready to use YOU to introduce some of these experiences to your community. The beauty of the true Church is that it does not require anyone with special qualifications to advance the kingdom – only those with a heart and passion to love, honor and serve Christ. Most of the people I’ve interviewed who lead organic forms of the Church today have no special training; their engagement is merely a reflection of their desire to be obedient servants willing to facilitate whatever God wants through them. Could you be one of those people in your area?
September 11, 2010
Ken S,
Please don’t wait any longer. Share your concerns with those around you with simplicity. Not “at church”.
But with common everyday people you run into, and those who have left church for one reason or another. Share the three books we discussed earlier with those around you and ask those people to come to the house and share them in a free atmosphere. Don’t start church. Discuss the books and become friends in a non religious atmosphere letting the truth in them (books) gradually dawn on them. I hand out copies of those books to people. It is surprising the reactions people have after reading them. Recently a close sister in the Lord that I used to “go to church” with, we helped orphanages together not as a part “of church”. She did the following. She quit her very good job, sold her house, PU truck, gave her furniture and household goods away, and moved to the rugged mountians of Oaxaca Mexico. She is living in a hand built mud hut with thatched roof with some christian folks we met earlier at a christian convention in Puebla Mexico. They minister to young people getting them off drugs and out of witchcraft. I said that to say this, don’t be surprised by the reactions when people read those three books. Some will scoff, others become radical converts to first century Apostolic model community.
But you must take some baby steps asking Jesus Christ to help you.
We have missed and ventured off the track of what Jesus started, and then what Paul did as Apostle to the Gentiles. Rather than a clergy dominated religion, it was a famial type simple experience. The model is a family, closer than a blood brother. Jesus described the distiguishing mark as “they will know you by your love for one another.” Keep that in mind as to what the Lord wants to create through and around you.
Ken, you can do it with Jesus. Keep it simple.
September 10, 2010
Wow, a lot of bad experiences with Pastors reflected here. I’m a rookie Pastor, 2 years in, who would love to turn people loose to do ministry. Problem is, very few are asking, acting, etc. I’m aware that my denomination and most of the mainline has trained initiative out of congregational life — especially the energy or initiative to do the kinds of things Ken S is talking about. What we’re left with are a lot of people who just want/expect to be served — and don’t feel compelled to serve.
September 10, 2010
Hi, Craig:
I have seen what you’re describing throughout the country. But part of the role of a pastor in a conventional setting is to lead – and part of leading is motivating people to get excited about the vision God has given to you and find a way to mobilize them in a meaningful and productive fashion. Our studies show that many people are untapped potential for ministry; they need a catalyst. That’s the role of a leader. You may have a lot more capacity available than you realize. Many of them “don’t feel compelled to serve” today; it’s your challenge to give them an opportunity, a reason, and adequate support to get involved.
September 11, 2010
Craig,
Have you read “Revolution”, By George Barna?
“Pagan Christianity?”, By Frank Viola and George Barna?
“Reimagining Church”, By Frank Viola?
If not, may I recommend them.
If so, what is your opinion?
I do not judge pastors. I think they are trying to serve God within the modern western dominate model, and are just going with the overwhelming image of what a pastor is to be and do according to that image.
That said, it (modern pastor model) can not be found within the NT by implication or practice. That is not to question the intentions of those trying to serve God in that role, but the modern pastor model is being highly questioned by an ever growing group of scholars and layman.
As you have aluded to, the model is not producing the desired results, and is being rejected wholesale as a matter of practicality presently. George has written a scholarly tome (Revolution), if not just plain prophetic in the direction things are in fact going before they actually do. Even more revealing is the schathing commentary of the failure of the general modern model to produce an improvement of moral change and even rudimentary discipleship results within christianity as a whole. Let alone outreach.
Within the current modern model I have personally consistantly encountered over a period of forty years actual resistence (by modern leadership) to my attempts to venture out in my God given giftings within the framework of the modern model of what is called church.
Leaders are supposed to be fostering an atmosphere of equiping the saints to do the work of the ministry. Not actually resisting it. Leadership is to be producing equipped disciples doing the great commission and providing the atmosphere for that to be accomplished. It has been determined by an ever growing ground swell the current modern model is not nor can not produce the desired Scriptural results within the framework currently dominating modern western styled christianity.
I have left it to never return, to preserve my faith, because I have found it necessary to have the free active participation of a whole gifted community of believers functioning in an atmosphere of mutual edification and strengthening by the free participation of the whole.
Not the current passive mute observer of the leader’s ministry within a strict locked structural Liturgy that allows no active spirited free participation by the whole.
I am not saying that you roll that way.
That is the reason for the “lot of bad experiences with pastors here.”
It is largely systemic in my opinion, and is self perpetuating. I along with millions of others are now speaking out against this systemic dysfunction and no longer tolerate it.
September 11, 2010
As much as I too have been terribly hurt by the institutional machine, in one sense I don’t fault the heirarchy because they are victims of an unscriptural system. That’s not to say that change isn’t necessary-it can’t come too soon. But as long as most folks that attend habitually the Sunday morning spectator sport, thinking this is normal, you’ll never turn this mighty ship around. THe only hope I see apart from God’s miraculous intervention, and He is well able, is to bail from the ship and to get on with bringing the Kingdom under the leadership of the Spirit to the hungry hearts He is preparing. An interesting sidelight in all of this is the ministries that the establishment calls ‘parachurch’. My view is that this is the real church in action that is not cumbered by institutional and denominational straight jackets. It’s time the steeple-chasers took notice of where the real fulfilment of Matt.25 is. Any leader that is not willing to get into the ‘mud pits of Egypt’ has no right to carry the title.
September 11, 2010
We have 1800 years of the institutionalized pastor/priest-led church model to overcome. It will take either a long time or a catastrophic failure to change. I’m afraid it’s going to be a God-ordained catastrophic failure.
I have no quarrel with pastors as individuals. I think virtually all pastors would be very kind and considerate and helpful if you were to meet them individually. But to minister to an entire congregation is beyond the capacity of any mortal man. When you consider all the needs and opportunities in everyone’s life within a congregation, the absolute best the pastor can do is preach good sermons and encourage people to participate. He can burn himself out trying to do more, but he’s trying to do something God never intended him to do. If the modern church model ever works, it’s because the pastor has the exercised ability to get out of the Holy Spirit’s way and the members are motivated to meet with and love each other in meaningful ways that ministry grows out of (without clergy interference). As long as people have the opportunity to sit still and let someone else do the work, that will happen, and that IS the modern church model.
As long as pastors buy into the modern church model, the frustration will continue. As long as believers continue to buy into the seminary-trained expert idea, we will continue to abdicate our own responsibility to research things and address what God puts on our plate. The whole seminary/pastor thing causes the average believer to abdicate his own responsibility to the clergy, and the clergy accept that, despite the many protestations to the contrary. The model is so entrenched, though, that I think any pastor of a church would find it very difficult to give up that model of church. How would he feed his family? What would he do with himself?
As to starting something where I live, I’m giving that some serious consideration. We’ll see what happens.
September 13, 2010
Why the “Crisis of Confidence in the Church?”
IMO, in looking at the whole of the NT as an overview observing the Apostolic era. The High Preist and Preist system, along with the Temple system, was obviously done away with and abandon by the Apostles and the fledgeling followers of Jesus community as a whole. They were instructed to preach the Gospel starting with the Jew first, Gentile next, and in Judea/Samaria/rest of the world sequence. Therefore we find them in the synagogue for preaching the Good News purpose. But as far as fellowship is concerned and equipping believers, a complete departure from the Priest/Temple system of religion.
The complete NT picture is one of simple famial close knit community of small groups sharing everything in common, including during the fellowship gatherings. Pauls biggest challenge was the Jewish converts that came along after him, the Jewish converts telling the Gentile converts they needed to be circumcised and observe the law and be bound to the Jewish system.
Early Ekklesia did not even have Elder/Shepherds. They came later as they were individually raised up by the Holy Spirit, AND not through a hierarchical structure. Paul wrote his letters to the saints, not leaders. Itinerants traveled stopping to strengthen local Ekklesia, but left again, leaving the community to function on their own with the believers as a whole making decisions and correcting problems functioning as a community. There is no indication of a local guy who lived locally being paid salary for full time priestly or pastoral duties on behalf of the Ekklesia as an intermediary between God and worshipers. That mistaken notion is read back into the Scripture from current tradition, not Scriptural precedence. This clergy/layman distinction is producing an atmosphere that actually hinders true Ekklesia from occuring quite naturally. The result has been a shaking of confidence in the church. People can’t quite put their finger on the problem, but they feel frustrated in not being able to freely express their faith by their gifting in meetings or in community in general. They feel hindered and actually resisted to express themselves in gifts they have that have no means of expression or platform to develop those giftings within the structure presently perceived as church. That present modern church experience is quite essentially, factually, dominated by a clergy class of hired professionals. Of course there are some believers that are quite content in that atmosphere, so there will always be a clergy hierarchical structured institution there for them. But I am talking about most people who are not satisfied with that manifestation of christianity to be able to experience God and their fellow believers in that structure.
The modern individual does not want to sit in pew a passive mute observer of the professional priest system going about the routine sacrifices as their intermediary to God, being sermonized in monologue and looking at the backs of heads anymore.
The modern individual wants to get his or her hands dirty in the business of fulfilling the Great Commission as a natural expression of the gifting God has placed within them freely.
So, they want someone (a leader or leaders) to help them to acheive that. They don’t want to watch anymore being sermonized to!
How to acheive that is relatively simple in principle, but requires a paradigm shift in practice.
Briefly, we are not a religion!
We are a family. That turns a major portion of us off. Why? Because most of our picture of family is our dysfunctioal earthly one we were born into physically. We start to invision the get together on Thanksgiving or Christmas and all that encompasses. For some that is positive, for many negative.
This spiritual God family is unlike any we have observed or conceived.
Therefore the statement by Jesus Christ: “They shall know you by your love for one another.”
We have been working this christianity thing like a religion business. When it was, is, will be for all eternity, A FAMILY!
A functional family.
We have some serious work ahead of us.
September 18, 2010
Reading many of the comments, there seems to be a true hatred of the church, at least in the speech coming from the comments. The problem that I see based solely on the conversation (small sample as it may be) is that the church isn’t involved enough in areas of concern where there lies a need. However, be careful not to lump ALL the church there are some Pastors out there (myself included) who are encouraging my people to get involved. Yes there are many concerns that we as Pastors have, because of laws in place that limit what we can and can’t do. I don’t like it, and in fact want those leaders of the church to think outside the box and get involved in peoples lives. That isn’t an emerging church mentality, it is actually a biblical perspective that has long been shoved to the wayside. There is still hope for the church, when we return to true biblical perspective and procedure, and are able to say with Peter, “Whether it is right to obey men rather than God, you be the judge, as for us we can’t help but speak of the things that we have seen and heard.”
September 20, 2010
Jason Mays,
Loved your post. When you say church, what does that mean? Are you talking about church or Church?
I am very careful to talk about the modern western model of church. I do not “hate” that model, but I do question the wholesale operation of that modern model as the God intended expression of church.
You state: “The problem … is that the church isn’t involved enough in areas of concern where there lies a need.” What might those areas be in your opinion? I have never seen agreement within christianity of what those needs might be?
You also state: ” be careful not to lump ALL the church there are some Pastors out there (myself included) who are encouraging my people to get involved.” In what? Encouraging is a good thing. Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Teachers, Elder/Shepherds, are given the the Church to equip the saints to do the work of the ministry. Tell me of your gifting and how you are specifically equipping people to do what the Bible says to do? In 37 years in christianity I have never seen a comprehensive program in modern modeled christianity church of one of the five above giftings actually equipping people to do what the Bible says to do. Nor have I seen a comprehensive agreement on what churchs thought what should be done?
George Barnas book, “Revolution” documents a pretty sorry picture of how the modern model of church is failing to do what it is supposed to do.
“Revolution” also documents that there is a wholesale move away from that modern of model of what church primarily is and does by the newer generations.
What are we supposed to be doing, and how do we equip people on how to do it?
September 21, 2010
Michael O, you brought up “Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Teachers, Elder/Shepherds” as people given to the church to “to equip the saints to do the work of the ministry”. That is straight from Scripture. I see plenty of teachers, elder/shepherds, evangelists, and sometimes an apostle show up in Church. But I have never seen a prophet show up in Church. They are around, and they have words from God that the Church needs to hear, but the Church doesn’t want to hear what they have to say. God is pissed at the Church, to put it mildly. For a prophet to speak in a church, the pastor and the people have to be ready to receive some dire messages about what they need to change in their lives, and I don’t see any difference between the modern Church and ancient Israel when Jeremiah brought all his negative messages. Israel wanted to kill him because he didn’t tickle their ears. Does anyone think it’s any different in our day and age?
I don’t personally have anything against pastors, but their job is predicated on an unbiblical model that damages the work of Christ. You have to buy into the heirarchical system to support the idea of a pastor, and the New Testament doesn’t do that.
I have written a couple of articles on the modern Church, “The Church And The Culture War”, and “The Brain Dead Church”, which can be found at http://ksauter.net/The_Modern_Church.html. If you are a pastor, you won’t like what I have to say. Nevertheless, I think these things need to be said.
September 22, 2010
Ken S,
Love your posts.
I believe all five of those gifts (Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Teacher, Elder/Shepherd) given to the Ekklesia are around today.
As a relevant example I would characterize Barna’s book “Revolution” as prophetic in the model of prophecy given within the NT. It describes accurately the present state of the Ekklesia, it calls for repentance from that present state, it tells what to do, it tells where things are headed before the fact, it describes why it is happening, it describes what it means, it relates Scripturally that it is a good thing. Barna will probably freak from the characterization, but the work speaks for itself, if it is properly digested.
If that is not prophecy? I do not know what is?
As to Apostolic functioning, I will give just one recent one who passed away in the late 90′s. That way I would not have to defend current living ones and they can remain quietly efficient. John Wimber of the Vineyard movement. He and his itinerants started over 900 churches. Right, wrong or indifferent to the outcome, that is an Apostolic functioning by an individual in starting churches. We in the greater Ekklesia are receiving more light now on how to sustain and grow local ekklesia plantings in a simpler Scriptural manner and center it on Jesus more. Paul the Apostle it is believed started 13 local churches, and he seemed to go more for quality. But the Holy Spirit seems to be doing things in a bigger way now.
September 22, 2010
And there are prophets who are called to the office of prophet, and they have a message(s) for America. God only occasionally gives them a “Word from the Lord”, meaning that everything they say is not necessarily prophetic, but when they say “Thus saith the Lord” (and they are being dutifully obedient the Lord of the Universe), what they say, I think, has the force of scripture. To look at what they say, it is hard to conclude otherwise. I suggest http://www.jewishprophet.com as one example. A lot of what he says is his opinion, but there is a statement on his home page that is a word from God. I know many people will dismiss anything that isn’t already in scripture, but they will have a hard time dismissing what this man says as accurate. I honestly believe when he says “Thus saith the Lord”, it is God speaking, and those who dismiss what he says do so at their own peril. History will tell. God is very active in giving prophetic gifts right now, and prophets are one God-ordained office that you will seldom, if ever, see giving a word from God in a church. Churches, as we have discussed them here, don’t want to hear bad news. Remember Jeremiah? Same thing, different century.
September 24, 2010
I would agree that there are Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Teachers, today functioning in the Ekklesia. It is by function not by office or position and is not hierarchical. I think Scripture is closed.
The above not understood or functioning properly has stunted the church, thereby causing the lack of confidence.
October 3, 2010
Old covenant traditions that modern church practise are largely based on are almost impossible to break. It’s like trying to raise the Titanic and restore it to its original condition after a hundred years. No, a revolution such as has been touted in one form or another in the above posts can only come as a Divine afflatus from above. One more fad, one more new idea, one more attempt at the manufacture of synthetic wine skins is doomed to failure simply because far too many North American ‘believers’ think that our practises are based on the Bible, having been raised not knowing anything else. So when someone comes along and ‘rocks their boat’ and questions their paradigms, that someone has to be wrong. THe practises may not work, and most don’t, but that matters little to the many stuck in the proverbial rut. By the way, for those of you who need a new definition of a rut, it simply is ‘a grave with both ends kicked out’. That for the most part the modern church in NA is irrelevent is obvious. Just ask any one in a given community where an edifice stands what that church is all about. How effective that ‘ministry’ has been will be reflected in the responses to that question. I think just a little bit of honesty would tell a huge story about that church’s obedience, or lack of it. Not long ago I read about the state of the church in many of our proverbial bubbles. The author described it as either being a gathering or an assembly. While we have many gatherings today, the number of real assemblies are precious few. What’s the difference, you might ask? Imagine a pile of car parts stacked in a heap. The car is all there but has no capability of going anywhere because it is not assembled. An assembly, on the other hand is a complete car that only needs a driver. All the parts are in their right place and are doing the job they were designed to do. And the car is actually able to perform the function because it is assembled. As long as the crowning achievement by any group of people gathering in the same location once a week is to sit through yet another spectator -oriented activity where inadvertantly passivity is encouraged, there will be little movement in kingdom advancement. As I see it, sermonizing produces very little in the way of real transformation in people’s lives. In my view, as long as the main features of any church center around, a hired professional otherwise known as a pastor, a building and a morning service, real discipleship will never be fostered to any consequence as far as big picture kingdom work is concerned. But then, coming full circle, as long as we insist on putting new cosmetics on unbiblical traditions, why would God bless it anyway? That’s not to say that nothing good every happens in those settings or that God can’t work in spite of them. But all you need to do is look at what the New Testament Church was able to accomplish despite the apostles being idiots (see the Greek for yourselves in Acts 4:13) and it has often left me wondering why we can’t do what they did. I think any honest thinker would already know the answer to that question!
October 4, 2010
The modern christian religious system like all of the systems in place in the world today make the common man the servant of it, rather than servants unto God and one another and the world at large. The christian religious system is where the fight is, not the people within the system. The problem is systemic. The system is non-Scriptural and man made. The system can not produce disciples or workers in Gods economy. The system reproduces the system. The Ekklesia is an organism. The modern christian religion system is an organization. Organizations do not produce organisms. Organisms produce organisms. We are a body, a bride, a family. Man over 2,000 years has made it an organization, a system, hierarchical, positional, office holding.
God started a family, all inclusive, relational, functional, all participatory, all equal.
It is a systemic problem.
We must return to the original model which is organism, organic, functional, famial, closer than a blood brother relational, all participatory, all inclusive, sustaining, exhorting, building one another up. Not building up the system.
The modern christian religious system presently hire and pay a salary for a professional clergyman, he does the religion for us, in the religious building which is very expensive where the religion is done, on the specially earmarked day when the religion is done, according to a strict prearranged order of religious activity, where the predominate three things are a monologue sermon where it is non-dialogue and everyone sits dumb mutes, and prearranged prescribed music is done by special musicians and singers where we follow along on some of the non-spontaneous musical entertainment, and a container of some type is passed around and money is collected where the overwhelming majority goes to pay professional clergy and special religious realestate payments and upkeep for fixed real assets.
First century organic Ekklesia had no local paid clergy but every member functions every member participates, no special religious realestate but from house to house daily breaking bread and fellowship and prayer, no tithe but a purse kept and distributed to each who had need, a community where itinerants came in temporarily and equipped the saints to do the work of the ministry, local elders grew up in the community naturally organically by function not by office or positional in hierarchy but functionally. Jesus Christ was central, preeminate, and lead the community by the person of the Holy Spirit. Not by a hierarchy of men in organization. Everyone grew in Jesus Christ and relational to every member and it was famial.
You didn’t “go to church!”
You were the Church!
October 5, 2010
Michael,
you are so right about being church not going to church.
I’ve been a pastor for 11 years and I’ve seen a few institutional churches making this shift; but most aren’t and most pastors I talk to don’t even see it happening. The hard question as the shift is made from going to church to being church is, “How do we minister to those who mistakenly believe the church is an institution they can always rely on for a service?”
I’m a firm believer in the power of congregations to reach people. The untapped power of congregations has sometimes been wasted on worries about preserving buildings and paying salaries. All the same congregations often provide continuity for those seeking to serve God and to share the word. That’s why I believe many existing congreations will be part of the solution.
I look this year. We have Sunday School, confirmation, and Bible School classes filled with children dropped of “at church”. We have a huge mission field, made up of drop-off parents who won’t come in the door and their children.
I believe honestly that only when Christians work in concert will we best able to share the Word along with the joys and celebrtations of life.
thanks for the thoughts
John
October 6, 2010
John,
Honest and heartfelt post by you, I love when the Brethern are like that. I don’t think that the institutional system will ever completely stop. I don’t think that one should be concerned with trying to change it. It is what it is. It will keep rolling along. Many people want it and will continue on with it. Myriad are the reasons why people do what they do?
The modern institutional monolith christian religious system framework just is not the atmosphere for Pauls model of New Testament christianity to flourish.
I tried for over 30 years to effect change within the christian institutional system framework. The problem is systemic. There are many good fine christian believers in the institutional system and they are not the problem.
IT IS THE SYSTEM. Just like everyone is trying to tell our politicians: “It’s the economic system stupid!”
Likewise it is the modern christian institutionalized system stupid! I am not calling anyone stupid.
The present modern system is upside down, backwards, opposed, to the model of first century foundation laid down by the Apostles, especially demonstrated by Paul with the Gentiles, Greeks, and Romans.
They (first century Apostles) planted an Ekklesia in a locale and it was flat organizationaly speaking. No local, paid, clergy. No distinction between clergy and laity. All were a royal preisthood, a holy nation. They gave the Gospel, Baptized them, shared a meal together daily, met daily house to house with a shared meal, all participating all functioning in the life of the Ekklesia. The all participation all functioning in the Ekklesia corporate ministry is what made disciples and equipped all to do the work of the ministry.
But even more importantly than that, within that small house to house daily breaking bread together, FAMILY happened. Real loving relationships happened. Real community happened. A real Jesus Christ happened in their midst.
In the modern system mom and dad drop little Harry and Sally off at “the church” because they are not a part of the ministry. They come maybe for 2 hours on a Sunday every once in a while, because they have to sit a dumb mute on a hard pew and listen to a droning sermon monologue that has no relevance or practical usefulness to their life. They already bought into the eternal life insurance policy. So they have got it. They are really not compelled to tell their family friends and neighbors to come because they for the most part are bored with the system themselves and not interested in adding numbers to the system.
Hey, they hired a guy to do the religion for them, pay big money for the pretty building to do the religion in, have a special day to do the religion on. What else do you expect. They work hard and shell out cash to keep the system oiled up.
But on the other hand, you have a group of folks who are intimately involved in one anothers lives, know one another, have grown to love one another, are involved culturally, societily, relationally, eat together, recreate together, share their lives, help one another, know what each other are going through, famial in nature, functionally are a Church, rather than members of “a church”. They can’t dump little Harry and Sally off at “the church”, because little Harry and Sally are already there because they live there where the Church congregates.
The modern christian institutional system framework just does not allow the first century Apostolic foundational model to develop.
It really is a difference in what the Apostle Paul modeled and what Constantine and his Mom instituted to get that mandated Roman state christian religion rolling.
God is talking family here!
October 11, 2010
Rearranging the chairs on the ship will not help one that is sinking. We hear often that the country is morally banckrupt, and if that is so, by rearranging our form of worship will have little effect. We also hear that it will take nothing less than another great awaking from God to save our country from going down the tubes. Not being an historian on revival, my knowledge is very limited. However, it seems that the revival that saved England in the 1700′s and the two great awakings we had in American, came when preaching warned people that they must repent or perish. Has Mr. George Barna ever completed a survey to determine what per cent of people in America feel no need to repent of their sins. They said the sinners prayer once, and it would be legalism to expect one to give up his sinful life style. Do their preachers tells them week after week that they are ok, or those in their home church group tell them that they are secure in Jesus, we are all sinners? It seems that type of preaching and teaching was not present in the great awakeings. Peter followed Jesus in His statement, repent or likewise you shall perish. That brought people to their knees in fear of God. But is actual fear of God a no, no today in most churches and home churches?
Henry I.
October 14, 2010
Henry,
I too try to live a repentent lifestyle as the HS makes sin evident to me. I am not sure what you mean though about “rearrainging chairs on a sinking ship?” You then mention “country”… “rearrainging form”… “awakening”…”saving country from going down tubes”…”revival”…”Preachers telling them they are OK…”…
The topic being “Crisis of Confidence in the Church” I am assuming that you feel as though the lack of confidence in church is due to the present lack of hell fire and brimstone preaching and people not in fear of God on their face before Him in repentant fear and trembling?
Your position stems from starting in Genesis 3 (post-fall), without taking into consideration Genesis 1 and 2 (pre-fall) which takes into account Gods intentions for Himself and mankind as originally planned and presently being worked out by Him. He has always wanted a family. Man presently has it as a religion. The chairs that you say are being arrainged on the sinking ship are mans religion within the present model of doing religion, part of which has God as a mean old man who can’t wait to hit the children over the head with the proverbial stick.
The ship I am sailing on is a family cruise and Dad has sent His Son to save the family not judge it and he is on His schedule setting the the whole ship back straight.
It is not so much “rearrainging our worship” as it is getting back to a functional family atmosphere.
Try reading Genesis 1 and 2 with what God the Father has in mind for Him and us originally family wise and it will change from form to purposeful healthy function. Repentance is progressive/ongoing and only possible by the empowering Holy Spirit in our lives.
October 14, 2010
Henry you have a point about fear. In many churches the fear of the Lord is the missing element that will move the church forward.
In seminary I was once hushed by a classmate who said that I, “…really didn’t mean fear, I meant reverence…” when I talked about the full reality of God. I told him that fear is a basic emotional response to something that surprises shocks and frightens us.
God in all glory can and will cause us to fear if God so chooses. Perhaps its time to preach the Word that God is truly all powerful and that seeing his glory will drive us to the ground. Perhaps its that experience that pulls people into the emergent church today.
pax
John
October 16, 2010
The control issue churches have is the same as their confidence problem. Birth control. People reject God’s blessing of children and then wonder why there aren’t young people in the church. Silly really. We didn’t trust God to plan our families. So, really we chose this situation.
October 18, 2010
How can one have confidence in a preacher/leader who asks the congregation to do something that they DON’T?….witness/outreach…
I heard a sermon on outreach yesterday..with just a little tip at the last minute on a general/basic approach- FIRM (family,interests, religion, message)
People don’t outreach, because they are afraid, ashamed, or unprepared. To keep this short..tell your congregation that they can outreach to many in a simple, almost anonymous way until they get past their XENOPHOBIA.
Since most people in church use a computer, They can reply to news stories in Hotmail, Yahoo, Google, CNN, by typing comments.. WHY NOT type in bible verses, or gospel messages in the comments section??
Train them to become internet warriors involved in online outreach. This can take one minute to several hours a day depending on their schedule.
October 22, 2010
Given that there is a “Crisis of Confidence in the church.” As clearly documented by Barna Research and Polling as well as other polling researchers. By the mass exodus from traditional religious forms of expression of christianity. To non-traditional forms of expression. Clearly reflected by traditional expressions dying and new emerging expressions multiplying. Some observe that we have entered a new revolution inspired by the Holy Spirit. Why is a revolution needed now? What we in the Ekklesia are to foster is an atmosphere whereby the members are transformed by a very real tangible powerful intimacy with the person of Jesus Christ and ourselves corporately. The traditional institutions are not fostering that.
The first reformation was by Luther and Calvin and others that made it OK and permissable outside the confines of Roman Catholicism.
Now the Holy Spirit is making it permissable even attractive to express ones faith outside of Protestantism/Catholicism/Evangelicalism.
The first reformation reclaimed the Bible from the clergy only dark ages.
Now the HS revolution is reclaiming the Bride from religious man made tradition.
The first reformation freed every believer from the need for clergy abolition from their sins, whereas every believer was a preist able to go directly to God for forgiveness.
Now the revolution frees every believer and reclaims 1 Corin 14: 26 as the norm whereby every member functions every member participates without the need for special clergy professionals.
George brings up an important point in Revolution that the modern model of the reformed institutional church’s idea of success contains the following five things.
1 Attendance 2 Buildings 3 Cash 4 Programs 5 Number on pastoral staff.
Jesus Christ’s idea of success is a community bearing fruit by honoring and serving God reflecting the life of God. Which has none of the 5 in the success formula.
We have a crisis on our hands with the status quo.
But a bright exciting journey that the Holy Spirit is leading with this present Revolution.
It is the current Revolution from the Reformation, Roman Catholicism, and Evangelicism.
October 23, 2010
On the subject of repentance brought up earlier.
There are four aspects of the word. The aspect appropriate for the topic at hand (The Crisis of Confidence in the Church) is a nuance meaning to turn back; to return; to reconsider; a reversal. The idea is to turn on ones heel and procede in a different direction than one is currently going. To feel sorry or contrite does not play well here for our purposes.
Return to what? Turn back to what? To reconsider what?
Reformation and Revival are spoken of a lot.
George Barna uses the word Revolution in his book by the same name.
I like the word Revolution and I think we are presently in a Holy Spirit Revolution.
Luther, Calvin, and others didn’t go far enough in the first reformation. Not to belittle them, it was merely time sequencing of the Holy Spirit in the ongoing redemption process. Basically the rearraingment of chairs spoken of was accomplished in the first reform. The modern model of Pastor is actually a reconstituted Catholic Priest. The Liturgy a reconstituted Catholic Mass, and so on and so forth. Reformation the concept is inadequate to address the current crisis at hand. Revival? Are we trying to revive the Reformation? Are we trying to Revive this modern institutional religious monolithic system and breathe life back into it? The first Reformation just dressed the Roman Catholic church up in a new suit of clothes. The 1st reform served its purpose in reclaiming the Bible from a Clergy only allowed Dark Age. Where no layman were allowed to read the Bible. And copying the Bible in the dead Latin language which only the privalaged Clergy knew. The 1st reform created an evironment for the individual believer to go to God directly for forgiveness of ones sin. And freeing believers from the dependance on clergy as go between and of paying contritions for that sin. But it left one still entangled in a man made control hierarchy called Protestantism with a still entrenched clergy layman distinction.
Revolution in Websters College Dictionary Fourth Edition says: 4 a complete or radical change of any kind 5 overthrow of a government, form of government, or social system by those governed and usually by forceful means, with another government or system taking its place.
I like the word Revolution sense 4 and 5 for our purposes for addressing and correcting the current crisis of confidence in church.
We are witnessing Jesus Christ through the Agency of the Holy Spirit in Revolution. He is establishing the Kingdom of God and freeing His Bride to prepare Herself for Him properly. In the hearts of His people He is placing a desire for freedom from man made religious hierarchy control of their expression of faith. To a corporate every member functions and every member participates in their gatherings. Therefore everybody grows and matures into their giftings and callings and most of all intimacy with the Risen Jesus Christ. This happens wherever His people gather in a plane, in a train, in a coffee shop, in an old warehouse, in friends houses, in a park. And special hired guys need not be present, and they don’t have to have permission from some religious government group.
October 23, 2010
Here are a few things I have repented of.
I have repented of hiring a special guy paid a salary to do the religion for me. I now take responsibility for doing those things myself in concert with my Brethern.
I have repented from sitting in pew a dumb mute listening to a paid guy in droning monologue sermon week after week. I now take responsibility to dialogue openly and freely with my Brethern in meetings by the prompting and leading of the indwelling Holy Spirit. Which requires daily Bible study, prayer, contemplation, discussion, effort, in preperation for meetings.
I have repented from going to meetings for what I get out of it and for a blessing to me and how much I am receiving from it. I now take responsibility to be a blessing, to honor and worship God and bless Him first and foremost, to edify my Brethern, to build up my Brethern, to help my Brethern, to teach rather than just be taught, to build up rather than just be built myself.
I have repented from allowing myself to be trapped in an atmosphere whereby I am controlled within a rote, written in stone, Liturgy (order of worship) whereby I am controlled from my responsibility of participation and operation of my God given giftings in Christian community to bless my fellow Brethern and honor God.
I have repented from allowing of 80% of all monies collected for religious purposes to go to pay clergy and staff salaries and building real estate. I now with a glad heart give to help struggling Brethern/Orphans/Poor/Widows/etc etc etc etc.
I now take responsibility because I am my Brothers keeper.
I have repented from going to church and being entertained by professional musicians and choir and worship leaders. I now take responsibility to make a joyful noise in my heart unto God daily and come up with Holy Spirit inspired Psalms and Hymns and Spiritual Songs by the indwelling Holy Spirit in me and share them at the appropriate time for the edification of the Body.
I have repented from going down the road most traveled by following man made traditions of doing church, Now I take responsibility to read my Bible and read it not reading my present experience back into the teaxt. But I allow the text to say just what it says no matter how uncomfortable, unpopular, detrimental to my comfort, that may be.
I have repented from doing the cookie and juice thing and calling that the “Lords Supper” as the only way of expressing the experience. I now take responsibility for being involved in a shared sit down, full blown, fellowship, 10 course, love meal with my Brethern. In homes. In restuarants. Often.
I have repented from going out and buying costume clothes for the weekly fashion parade dress up party. I now dress in an approprate manner that is cost conscious and reflects the group of my Brethern without making anyone feeling uncomfortable because they are going through a rough time in their life and I want them to feel genuinly welcome and part of the group.
I repent from making this Bride of Christ a cheap religion. I now take responsibility for making it an all inclusive, free, all participatory, all functioning, God honoring, everyone becoming more intimate with Jesus, famialal, loving Body of Christ Ekklesia.
November 10, 2010
As Henri Deaton said, trying to save the ship by rearranging the chairs on board is not a useful approach. Why are so many people leaving this ship in the first place because that seems to be the gist of the crisis??
Could it be because the pews are too hard? The pastors or priests not friendly and involved enough? Or are the lights too bright? Or could the reason for this crisis be something more meaningful, like our beliefs?
In this day and age we as individuals have to interpret everything around us. Over time things around us have become a whole lot more complicated and detailed than say a hundred years ago and even more so compared to a thousand years ago. To, nowadays, even have an income, to eat and have living space, to marry, to drive, to phone, we require quite an education. Even preschoolers are now so much more ‘with it’ and involved than just 50 years ago, let alone a thousand years ago.
There are more reasons, but what I am saying is that while interpreting the Bible we now come to different conclusions than those who did the interpreting fifteen hundred years ago. Especially those at the Council of Nicea in the year 325.
Have you ever been in a position to set up and start a fish tank? It would not be much different if this was done for yourself or for someone else. You probably will understand right away with a project like this that sometimes in the future the inside of the tank will need major cleaning. Not just because of dirt but also because how the fish have been getting along.
You put in fishes, other forms of life and also plants and ornaments and sand for the inhabitants to enjoy and use. Obviously you cannot tell the fish how to behave. Over time you will find out which fishes will tolerate each other and which will try anything to make the life of other fishes as miserable as possible. There will be things that will help to keep the environment clean, which will make it more interesting for everyone. After all you love every fish and hope they all have a happy and clean environment. That means that some fishes might be better of in a different tank, with a different environment.
However, there will come a time, that this tank will need major work. Are we going to jump in and kill all the fishes we don’t like? Or get to work with our power washer? If we don’t care what happens to whatever is in the tank at that time, we may just do that and start over. If, however, we do love every single fish and all other life still in the tank, then we don’t want to bring harm to them or even unnecessarily upset them. So we use certain tools and methods that will get the job done but with the least amount of inconvenience.
Most will make the choice to stick their arm in the tank and clean in a way that will get the best results with the least amount of upset.
Now, please superimpose this scenario over whatever you have read and heard about the beginning and creation of this universe.
God also knew and prophesied that at some point He would have to come down clean up this spiritual environment we are in, and over time have made such a mess of. Several times. That is why there are so many promises or prophesies in the Bible that do say God will come down to earth. Will God come down and jump into our world? That would do as much damage to this world as us jumping into a fish tank.
It may come to some as a surprise that in several places in the Bible it is said that God took care of things in this world “with a mighty hand and with an outstretched arm.. (Deut. 7:19; 11:2-3; 26:8; Jer. 32:21; Ps. 136:12).
The outstretched arm of God will come down and make this world a better place. Would you consider His arm a different and disconnected entity from Himself? Of course not. To make it possible for God to be in this world and save humanity from spiritual death, several things had to happen. He had to be among us and be approachable by evil spirits. Even though God loves them, evil spirits cannot approach the spirit of God and live. So He had Mary make Him His body. God was the Soul of the body called Jesus and His influence on us was His holy spirit. This is the Trinity of aspects, not persons. This is the Lord God Jesus Christ, the one and only God of heaven and earth.
So, as said before, that was the only way evil people could approach the loving God (tempt Him) and expose their evil and in that way place themselves in their proper spiritual environment or ‘tank’. God could not and does not send anyone to hell, we do so ourselves.
As you know, we were created in His image and likeness and thus are also three in one. We are a soul with a body and an influence on the world around us.
This means that all the work God did in our spiritual environment started from the time He was a young child and was accomplished in just about thirty years. The power of good and evil spirits were brought in balance and this restored our spiritual freedom while this also complied with all His prophesies that were made through the ages.
Then He said: “it is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost” (John 19:30)
Having read this please read the Gospels again and see if it makes sense to ask God’s arm to put in a good word for us with God.
November 18, 2010
here’s a little story that says it better than I ever could:
One Sunday morning, an old cowboy entered a church just before services were to begin. Although the old man and his clothes were spotlessly clean, he wore jeans, a denim shirt and boots that were worn and ragged. In his hand he carried a worn-out old hat and an equally worn, dog-eared Bible.
The church he entered was in a very upscale and exclusive part of the city. It was the largest and most beautiful church the old cowboy had ever seen. The people of the congregation were all dressed with expensive clothes and fine jewelry. As the cowboy took a seat, the others moved away from him. No one greeted, spoke to, or welcomed him. They were all appalled by his appearance and did not attempt to hide it.
As the old cowboy was leaving the church, the preacher approached him and asked the cowboy to do him a favor. “Before you come back in here again, have a talk with God and ask him what he thinks would be appropriate attire for worship in church.” The old cowboy assured the preacher he would.
The next Sunday, he showed back up for the services wearing the same ragged jeans, shirt, boots, and hat. Once again he was completely shunned and ignored. The preacher approached the cowboy and said, “I thought I asked you to speak to God before you came back to our church.”
“I did,” replied the old cowboy.
“And what was his reply?” asked the preacher.
“Well, sir, God told me that he didn’t have a clue what I should wear. He said he’d never been in this church.”
December 8, 2010
I realize that I am coming in very late on this conversation, but for what it is worth would like to add my 2 cents.
I have served as a pastor of a local church for over 21 years, and work with fellow pastors on a regular basis. I certainly realize that there is a great deal of what people call Christianity that is nothing more than the traditions of men, and they have made the Word of God of no effect.
I also understand that unfortunately far too many churches are led by pastors, boards etc. who are very steeped in religious thinking, and have done a great deal of harm to the cause of Christ.
With this said, I have also witnessed an increasing growth of anti-church rhetoric among the Christian community in the United States. Unfortunately I believe that most of this is the result of far too narrow of perspective, and limited vision.
People like to blame everyone else for their situation rather than taking a good look in the mirror. They imagine that the only reason that the gospel is not being carried out, the poor fed, etc. is because pastors are stopping them from doing so. Or at least that seems to be the message that I keep hearing.
I think most pastors that I know are very concerned about these issues, and want to see a greater amount of community change, and cultural impact made through the life of believers. Let’s face the facts that this culture has taken many believers’ lives by storm. They are so involved with everything but the church, that they have little time to accomplish anything for God. This is a greater issue than simply the failure of the organized church. This is failure surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ by the organized church, and individuals within, and without that structure.
December 8, 2010
If people imagine that by simply abandoning the organized church that all their problems will be solved, they are dreaming!
People are people, and ministry always is about people. Just let the so called institutionalized church crash and burn, and we will see where the so called biblical model of home groups alone ends up in a few years.
Structured organizations are easy targets, and their faults are very visible, while home groups operate a bit more undercover. Many of these problems have very little to do with the structure of the church, but more to do with the heart condition of believers.
Until we see a revival where God’s people humble themselves, and abandon this rebellious attitude we will continue to see Christianity diminish in the United States. I firmly believe that a great deal of the popularity of the entire ‘Let’s get rid of the structured church movement,’ has little to do with true biblical Christianity, as much as it has does with rebellion, pride, and the entire do your own thing attitude that has permeated our nation on nearly every level.
December 13, 2010
Pastor Tim,
Everything I say in following is given with the utmost respect for you my brother in Christ. I individually acknowledge your honest intent of heart as well as motivation to serve God.
As to your reference to “anti-church rhetoric among the christian community in America.” I believe what you are reading here is much more so a rejection of the present modern model of man made traditional methodology of doing church. This is much more than rhetoric, as documented in George Barna’s book, “Revolution.” A wholesale departure from the traditional model is occuring.
I for one believe the problem presently of doing church is systemic. It is the system itself that actually hinders all of those things that you “pastors” say you want to see happen. There is a very large school of christians that is returning to first century Apostolic modeling as documented in the New Testament.
You said: “I believe that most of this is the result of far too narrow of perspective, and limited vision.”
Who’s perspective? Who’s vision? For far too long we have been following the perspective of men and the vision of men. I for example happen to believe the New Testament is God breathed and God given with His perspective and His vision contained therein. It is our responsibility to ascertain His perspective and His vision and then do what His perspective and His vision are. Not mans.
You said: “People like to blame everyone else…rather than looking in mirror”, “They imagine the only reason Gospel is not carried out…Pastors are stopping them from doing so.”
It is not the only reason but is certianly one of the reasons. I have personally run into this everywhere I have attended “church”, as have most of my associates. It is a problem in the modern model of doing church where the paid ‘professional staff’ very jealously guard their turf, so to speak. Or the paid ‘professional staff’ place so much hierarchical controls upon non-professional layman so that Gospel ministry dies on the vine. I would say that another problem in this area is that the paid ‘professional staff’ is not “eqipping the Saints to do the work of the ministry”. But the paid ‘professional staff’ is too busy with other business that is nowhere found within the contents of the New Testament. Such as preparing the weekly “sermon”, and all of the other unimportant items within the written in stone ‘liturgy”. Which said ‘liturgy’ relegates the unpaid non-professional ‘layman’ to a dumb mute, non-functioning, non-participating, pew rider. As opposed to an equipped, gifted, participating, functioning, Holy Spirit filled, child of God, actively participating in the explosion of the kingdom of God.
Your last paragraph about the “pastors concerns” illustrates what is being discussed here by mostly layman. You illustrate the complete failure of the present modern model of doing ‘church’ in that christians look and act just like the culture they are a part of. Rather than the first century christians that turned the whole world upside down.
As an example illustrating why we are experiencing such failure within the modern model of christianity I will use the modern model of “pastor.”
The modern model of “pastor” is nowhere to be found in the New Testament.
Show me a guy who is a local believer, paid a salary, year after year, runs the local fellowship, and completely dominates the gathering of the Saints? I want to see this guy in the New Testament.
There is no confidence in this methodology anymore. People are reexamining the New Testament and seeing how Paul and the Apostles did it and are returning to that model.
December 13, 2010
Pastor Tim,
You said: “If people imagine that by simply abandoning the organized church that all their problems will be solved, they are dreaming!”
I agree whole heartedly.
I have found just the opposite, more problems crop up at the outset. In fact usually the institutional model just gets drug into the home group. The institutional model is so ingrained into our thinking we have a hard time letting it go.
You said: ” Just let the so-called institutional church crash and burn, and we will see where the so-called Biblical model of home groups alone ends up in a few years.”
I agree that will be the test. I don’t think institutional church will ever completely disappear. Some folks will always go to them. There is much more going on than ‘home groups’, there are people meeting at work, in rented buildings, and about every way that can be conceived of. I don’t think that anyone here has a hatred of institutional or wishes ill will towards it. They just don’t want to do that anymore.
You said: “Structured organizations are easy targets, and their faults are very visible, while home groups operate a bit more under cover. Many of these problems have very little to do with the structure of the church, but more to do with the heart condition of believers.”
Isn’t it the ‘clergy’s’ job within an institution to deal with the “heart condition of the believers?” If that is true, all that that proves is that the ‘clergy’, isn’t doing its paid job within the structure.
If the “faults” are very visible within the structured organization, why isn’t the structured organization correcting the faults?
You seem to infer that what you term as “home groups” have no ‘structure’? That is not my experience in non-institutional type christian settings at all. I can assure you that the Holy Spirit is very organized, structured, orderly, creative, and fresh.
As far as structured organizations being targets, it seems you are targeting Holy Spirit structured “home groups”?
You said: “Until we see a revival where God’s people humble themselves, and abandon this rebellious attitude we will continue to see christianity diminish in the United States.”
Structured, organized, institutionalized, traditional, heirarchical, religion, must be in greater crisis than I ever thought if your observations are correct? Within the Ekklesia I circulate within there is a vibrant, free, vital, participatory, fully functioning, Jesus Christ centered, kingdom sharing, loving faith filled atmosphere. It is not nationalistic in vision, but worldwide.
You said: “I firmly believe that a great deal of the popularity of the entire ‘lets get rid of the structured church movement,’has little to do with true biblical christianity, as much as it does with rebellion, pride, and the entire do your own thing attitude that has permeated our nation on nearly every level.”
I am not aware of a “lets get rid of the structured church movement”? I am aware of many christian believers wanting a closer walk with the Lord Jesus Christ. I am aware of many christians wanting to experience their gifting and calling freely functioning and participating corporately with their fellow christian believers, devoid of the clergy-layman distinction. I am aware of many christians who read and want to experience we are all priests and kings unto our God and Lord.
I am aware of many christians who realize that true leadership is functional and not positional. They realize that true leadership stems from servanthood as opposed to heirarchy office.
They realize that leaders aren’t schooled in seminary, but forged on the anvil of suffering and the Holy Spirit dealing directly one on one in their life personally and corporately over a long period of time. Leaders are known and recognized because their life has been observed and the company of believers are very comfortable with them because their life is a light on a hill that has shown before them through many hard circumstance and issue and there are very few surprises with them. I am aware of many christians who want to be a vital part of ushering in the return of the Lord Jesus Christ because we can’t stand it much longer without being present with Him. I am aware of many christians who are very tired of the religion status-quo because Jesus Christ is not a religion, but our Lord whom we love.
The United States is not a christian nation. I am not called to a nationalistic ferver of converting it either. I and you are called to live the testimony of Jesus Christ and overcome and take the Gospel to the poor and sick and lame. If you truly are a pastor, then stop resisting a bonafide worldwide move of the Holy Spirit to the foundation which the Apostles laid which is Jesus Christ and not christian religion as handed down by men. If you are one of the 5 or 4 fold ministries given to the body to equip it, then equip them to do the work of the ministry and quit crying because they won’t do it. Brother!
December 9, 2010
Good points, Pastor Tim. The ultimate concern of us all is ministry and furthering the kingdom of God, despite the disagreement on how to get there.
I don’t think anyone believes all of our problems will be solved by abandoning the organized church. Wherever you have people, you have problems, and they must be dealt with.
The problem is the structure of organized church. There are so many people, pastors, seminaries, denominations, and God knows what else invested to the eyeballs in institutional churches, it will never go away. The way organized religion is set up, be it local, regional, national, or worldwide, is to have a central controlling authority that determines the direction of the organization. The most humble, absolute best, forward-thinking Godly pastor can’t get around that fact. He will determine the direction of his church. He does not consult everyone in the congregation before he determines a direction for his church. He’ll consult elders, prominent members of the congregation, or other influential people, but he will not consult everyone. There is no possible way he can. Most of the time the pastor and staff get together and decide what their church will be and do, then they present that to the congregation. the congregation may or may not be on board with it. I have seen pastors (on the Internet, anyway) get really excited about being missional, getting everyone involved, and developing great plans to do all that work. But that’s the problem: it is THEIR PLAN. Not only that, but they just don’t see all the needs in their congregation. It is my contention that a church is defined by the people in it, not by the pastor’s vision. If a pastor’s vision, however godly and anointed it might be, does not resonate with all of the members of the assembly, those who aren’t on board will be left out, regardless of how serious they are about their faith. And I believe that always happens. So you have pastors that go on with their vision, because that’s what they understand, and some people leave the church or just feel left out or ignored. That’s the price of centralized planning. The vision is defined by the governing authority.
An organized church is theoretically capable of doing the things mentioned in the first post on this topic, which I posted weeks ago. However, that will never happen. It’s too costly. An organized church can be controlled by controlling the pastor. The government does this all the time. Can you just ignore the IRS rules for 501(c)3′s and do what you want? I doubt it. So there you are controlled by Caesar already. You must deal with threats of lawsuits and such, and you MUST change your policies or behavior to deal with them. This is not an accommodation to ministry. It is an act of self-preservation. So the organized church is already compromised before you even talk about ministry. And those in positions of power in our culture have no qualms about leaning on a pastor to get him to ‘cooperate’ if the church starts having too much of an effect on the culture. It takes a man of enormous spiritual strength to resist that kind of pressure. Again, the position of pastor is the problem. Not personally, because I’m sure he is a very good and dedicated man, and he’d give the shirt on his back to help someone. He already spends an enormous amount of time serving his congregation and giving his heart and soul to other people.
It is the POSITION of pastor (not the biblical pastor, but the modern CEO pastor) that is the problem. Whether he likes it or not, he is the head of his church. The Bible says Christ is the head of his church. You can’t have it both ways.
December 16, 2010
Dear Brothers
I appreciate your forthright and honest feedback. Unfortunately it is difficult to communicate in this format on such a broad subject. However I will attempt to condense my thoughts as concisely as possible.
Michael, believe me when I say that I hear what you are saying loud and clear about pastors who obstruct the ministry of the Holy Spirit, and the members of the body of Christ. I have spoken to far too many of God’s people who have dealt with pastors like this. I agree that they are part of the result of their training, and in no way condone this type of ministry.
With that said, I believe we are mistaken to make stereotypical assumptions about pastors, and churches as a whole. I believe this to be one of the greatest mistakes that many of God’s people make. They are far too quick to throw the baby out with the bath water. Throughout the Old and New Testament there have always been those who corrupted the truth, and strayed off from the path of God’s intentions for His people. This will continue until the return of Christ. All I am saying is that we need to be careful to not assume that this is the way all pastors and churches operate because it is not.
Pastor Tim
December 16, 2010
Dear Brothers,
As I read your replies, I see that we have a fundamental difference of understand concerning the structure of the church.
It seems that you have the notion that God established His church as a democracy, where everyone comes together and determines the direction of God’s plan. This simply is not biblical, nor has it ever been. This actually is one of my problems with George Barna’s conclusions, and many who follow this stream.
I seem to hear this idea that the early church abandoned any type of authority form of government, and instead was purely lead by the consensus of local congregations.
Actually the early apostles continued in their traditional form of worship in the temple, and synagogues. This worship was adapted from the model given in the Old Testament.
Throughout Scripture God has always given His directives to a man or woman, and they in turn were to cast that vision to the congregation. Abraham, Moses, the Judges, the prophets, the shepherds (pastors), apostles, prophets, pastors, and teachers. (Eph 5:4-16)
There is a vast difference between the family of God, where all are equal in authority, and the army of God, where there is a chain of command. God has never directed His people by consensus, and will never do so. He has a chain of command, and will do so throughout the reign of Christ upon the earth.
This does not make those in authority superior as believers. It simply makes them responsible for the direction of God’s church. Have leaders failed? Yes, and they always will. Have people failed to follow God’s leaders? Yes, and they always will. This however does not change God’s order of authority.
Throughout the early church the apostles established elders, pastors (shepherds), and overseers, who were responsible to take the oversight of local congregations. The idea that we need to abandon this is simply not Scriptural. I believe that Acts 20:20 gives us the best model that we are to establish, rather than one or the other. We need both the Home Group to mentor, and nurture believers, along with the greater corporate congregation to strengthen, and offer oversight to the corporate vision.
I realize that this seems to be a real issue with many in the House Church movement, and this is why I refer to rebellion when addressing many in this movement. There is a great problem in our country with submission, and authority, and until this is dealt with in the hearts of many, they will simply take this same rebellion into House Churches where they will eventually implode for the same reasons. Unfortunately the final result will be many who are totally backslidden, and spiritually bankrupt because now they don’t want the structured church, or even the house church model. This may be a bit assuming on my part, but I have witnessed this same thing take place first hand over the years.
Pastor Tim
December 16, 2010
Very articulate, Pastor Tim, and a good presentation of your position. Thank you for the statement. This is the kind of discussion I wish we could have in church, and really hash these things out, but this will do.
I don’t think anyone is advocating democracy. I’m certainly not. It is the kind of leadership the church has that I am addressing.
You say “Throughout Scripture God has always given His directives to a man or woman, and they in turn were to cast that vision to the congregation. Abraham, Moses, the Judges, the prophets, the shepherds (pastors), apostles, prophets, pastors, and teachers. (Eph 5:4-16)”
In the OT there was a clear, God-ordained hierarchy. No question. There was also a temple, a priesthood, a tithe, and all the other things associated with “Church”. The priests and Levites mediated between God and the people, and Moses was definitely the top dog on the human side.
In the NT, there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus (I Tim 2:5). That displaces all the human mediators, including pastors. It also eliminates the OT hierarchy and Priest/Levite structure. The only full-time Christian leader in the NT is Paul, and he was itinerant. Yes, he instructed Titus to ordain elders in every city. There are also elders in every church, which I assume to be house churches. Bishops are mentioned a few times. As to Shepherd, that title belongs to Christ. He doesn’t give that to any man in the NT. HE is the shepherd and bishop of our souls.
The type of leadership I see in the NT is organic. That means it is naturally recognized by the people around it. For instance, if someone is good at leading a meeting and encouraging everyone to participate, that ability will be exercised and appreciated by everyone present. It helps the body function. Same thing with leading songs, understanding the Bible, etc. Natural abilities are naturally expressed, and appreciated. Elders are elders by virtue of their age, wisdom, and knowledge. Ordaining them (as I see it) is a matter of recognizing them as having those qualities. It is not an office. It is a function.
The Problem with the modern church is that all of the critical leadership positions are paid offices. That means they have an official function dictated by the authority that pays their check, and they are required to do that job. No one else is allowed to do that job. If anyone tried it, they’d be quickly removed, no matter how naturally good they were at it. What we have is a hierarchy, and an official structure designed to support an institution and make sure it keeps functioning. The whole structure is geared to perpetuate the institution, and it does that job very well. A house church with elders, bishops, and whatever else will function with the intent of giving EVERYONE
Organic leadership rises to the occasion. If a meeting leader is needed, someone present will be nudged by the Holy Spirit to lead the meeting. If a song leader is needed, The HS will provide a song leader. Leadership is provided as it is needed. There will likely be elders present to provide knowledge and guidance, and lead as necessary. The main point of an organically organized meeting is to give the HS full expression through every member of the body. In a modern church, the goal of the meeting is to listen to the pastor preach–every Sunday, same time, same place, no matter what the HS wants to do in the body.
December 16, 2010
Very articulate, Pastor Tim, and a good presentation of your position. Thank you for the statement. This is the kind of discussion I wish we could have in church, and really hash these things out, but this will do.
I don’t think anyone is advocating democracy. I’m certainly not. It is the kind of leadership the church has that I am addressing.
You say “Throughout Scripture God has always given His directives to a man or woman, and they in turn were to cast that vision to the congregation. Abraham, Moses, the Judges, the prophets, the shepherds (pastors), apostles, prophets, pastors, and teachers. (Eph 5:4-16)”
In the OT there was a clear, God-ordained hierarchy. No question. There was also a temple, a priesthood, a tithe, and all the other things associated with “Church”. The priests and Levites mediated between God and the people, and Moses was definitely the top dog on the human side.
In the NT, there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus (I Tim 2:5). That displaces all the human mediators, including pastors. It also eliminates the OT hierarchy and Priest/Levite structure. The only full-time Christian leader in the NT is Paul, and he was itinerant. Yes, he instructed Titus to ordain elders in every city. There are also elders in every church, which I assume to be house churches. Bishops are mentioned a few times. As to Shepherd, that title belongs to Christ. He doesn’t give that to any man in the NT. HE is the shepherd and bishop of our souls.
The type of leadership I see in the NT is organic. That means it is naturally recognized by the people around it. For instance, if someone is good at leading a meeting and encouraging everyone to participate, that ability will be exercised and appreciated by everyone present. It helps the body function. Same thing with leading songs, understanding the Bible, etc. Natural abilities are naturally expressed, and appreciated. Elders are elders by virtue of their age, wisdom, and knowledge. Ordaining them (as I see it) is a matter of recognizing them as having those qualities. It is not an office. It is a function.
The Problem with the modern church is that all of the critical leadership positions are paid offices. That means they have an official function dictated by the authority that pays their check, and they are required to do that job. No one else is allowed to do that job. If anyone tried it, they’d be quickly removed, no matter how naturally good they were at it. What we have is a hierarchy, and an official structure designed to support an institution and make sure it keeps functioning. The whole structure is geared to perpetuate the institution, and it does that job very well. A house church with elders, bishops, and whatever else will function with the intent of giving EVERYONE the opportunity to share and participate. When everyone in the body is free to share, and feels like they have been heard and appreciated, the body is edified. That doesn’t happen in modern church services. The only people allowed to share are those on stage.
Organic leadership rises to the occasion. If a meeting leader is needed, someone present will be nudged by the Holy Spirit to lead the meeting. If a song leader is needed, The HS will provide a song leader. Leadership is provided as it is needed. There will likely be elders present to provide knowledge and guidance, and lead as necessary. The main point of an organically organized meeting is to give the HS full expression through every member of the body. In a modern church, the goal of the meeting is to listen to the pastor preach–every Sunday, same time, same place, no matter what the HS wants to do in the body.
December 17, 2010
Thanks again for your response brother Ken, very well said.
I would agree that there are far too many churches that do not allow room for the expression of the Holy Spirit in their corporate worship services, via the expression of members of the body. However this has very little to do with the organized corporate church or the fact that churches are pastor lead. This is a failure to strive to yield to the Spirit of God.
I also believe it is the result of departing from the Spirit filled model of the early church. I agree that the home group is a great place for people to learn to give expression to their faith, and move in the Holy Spirit. I simply do not believe that the NT gives us the one or the other approach.
1 Corinthians 12-14, Ephesians 4:16, Romans 12 all are admonishing the various parts of the body to offer their supply for the edifying of the body. This can and should be accomplished in both home groups, and corporate public worship services. The place that people meet in has very little to do with this.
The only challenge in a large corporate worship service is the size of the congregation. It simply is much more difficult for a large group of people to be edified say in a corporate service of 5000 people via the congregational model. If someone in the back prophesied only a few around them would hear them and be edified.
I believe one of the problems with churches is that they imagine that all corporate worship services have the same function. This simply is not the case. Some meetings are for instruction (preaching, teaching). Some are for believers only the edifying of the body. Some meetings are evangelistic in nature, or for ministry to the sick.
Services do have an organic nature to them. I have served as a worship leader since I have been a believer, and understand this very well. I believe much of our problem that frustrates people about the modern church has more to do with style, and structure than any other thing.
I believe that far too many pastors have structured their preaching, and worship services to please people rather than to worship God.
Pastor Tim
December 17, 2010
Thanks again Ken, great discussion.
I would have to disagree about the early church abandoning the OT model of leadership. I believe they simply transferred it because the organic nature of the new covenant was of the heart, not in a physical building etc. John 4:23-24.
The OT model was a type and shadow of what was to come, because we are the temple of the Holy Spirit today, not a building.
It is however very evident that the early church maintained an authority structure within house churches as well as corporate meetings later on. The apostles were obviously the governing authorities of the early church. When an apostle established a new work, they would give oversight to that work.
While communal governing may sound good in theory, it simply does not work. Leaders will always rise to the forefront, and those who are not leaders will always follow them. The fivefold ministry that Christ gave to the church as mentioned in Ephesians 4 were placed by God as overseers of the local body of believers. They are no more valuable to God than any other believer; they simply have a different function.
All of the gospels are from the perspective of local congregations that met in synagogues, and governed by rabbis. Every epistle of the NT is written to local churches that had overseers. The letters to the seven churches of the Revelation are all given to angels (same word as messengers). These letters were delivered to the local pastors (shepherds) to give to their flock.
People have always met in homes, and in corporate ministry gatherings from the time of the early church. However a home group without the covering of a pastor is operating outside of God’s will. This may be alright in a country where persecution necessitates such a meeting, but in a country like the US, there is simply no excuse for it.
While there certainly may be pastors etc. who are operating outside of their calling I have come to understand in greater depth that these ministry gifts of apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, and teacher are supernatural equipping given by Christ Himself to serve His people.
The gift of the pastor (shepherd) is a stabilizing gift as Psalm 23 illustrates. People who refuse to receive from this gift will eventually become flaky, and instable in their walk, and their beliefs.
Sitting under the ministry of the Word of God, as delivered under the anointing of God is much more than simply hearing a sermon. It is one of the primary ways that God has always communicated to His people.
Jesus preached sermons, the early apostles preached sermons, and anointed men of God will always preach sermons. Open conversations, and dialogues of exchange in a home group is useful, but we do not abandon the preaching of the Word and replace it with this format entirely.
Pastor Tim
December 17, 2010
Sorry Ken, I realize that I failed to address the issue you raise about mediators.
I agree that Jesus is our mediator, and that salvation is given in no other name under heaven than He alone.
I would have to disagree with your conclusions about the title of shepherds. Several references in the NT give the title of shepherds to local pastors (shepherds) who were under shepherds of Christ.
(Acts 20:28 NKJV) “Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
(1 Peter 5:2-4 NKJV) Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly; {3} nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock; {4} and when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away.
We all must follow the example of others in order to learn. We are to imitate the faith of those who are more mature in their walk with Christ. A local shepherd (pastor) is to serve as an example of the flock of God. 1 Timothy gives us a clear example of this.
(1 Timothy 4:12 NKJV) Let no one despise your youth, but be an example to the believers in word, in conduct, in love, in spirit, in faith, in purity.
Paul admonished those he instructed to imitate him, as he imitated Christ.
(1 Corinthians 4:16 NKJV) Therefore I urge you, imitate me….(1 Corinthians 11:1 NKJV) Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.
We are all ambassadors of Christ, and are His body in the earth.
(2 Corinthians 3:2-3 NLT) But the only letter of recommendation we need is you yourselves! Your lives are a letter written in our hearts, and everyone can read it and recognize our good work among you. {3} Clearly, you are a letter from Christ prepared by us. It is written not with pen and ink, but with the Spirit of the living God. It is carved not on stone, but on human hearts.
Pastor Tim
December 29, 2010
Pastor Tim said “Have leaders failed? Yes, and they always will. Have people failed to follow God’s leaders? Yes, and they always will. This however does not change God’s order of authority. ”
What do you mean this does not change Gods order of authority ?.
If leaders are given the positions of authority which enables them to lead the flok astray .
How can anyone in their right mind try and claim , this still does nothing to change the authority of God ?.
Did God wish for people to be led astray ?.
If not …Then its extremely obvious ! ,Gods authority has indeed been changed by the authority of the Pastors sitting in positions of authority.
The trouble is some Pastors like having the positions of authority they hold.They fear losing these positions.They fear losing these earthly positions of prideful authority , far more than they care or fear about all the people who are continually abused by Pastors and Priests holding onto these position of authority.
December 29, 2010
Running the churches like mini dictorships , with Pastors and Priests of authority in a type of totalitarian authoritive control .
Makes about as much sense as giving certain scientists the totalitarian rights to make scientific claims , that nobody else has the right to ever even question.
By doing so Churches open themselves up to become prey of wolves in sheeps clothing.
This is not any real Rocket Science folks.Its simply common sense.
December 30, 2010
Thanks for your comments Dave,
I think you misunderstood my point. Even though leaders, have failed at times does not mean that God has abandoned His form of government as clearly revealed in Scripture.
While there are some pastors, (and I do mean some) who may abuse power, we are not given a mandate to abandon God’s order of authority. No where in Scripture do we see a congregational run model of the church. The only place where we any resemblance of this is in Acts 6. However, the apostles were still clearly in authority.
As a pastor I understand that first and foremost we are called to be servants, not dictators. Humility is the first priority for anyone God calls to serve in His Kingdom. We are called to serve one another, not rule over one another.
While some pastors have abused this at times, there are just as many congregations who have also abused their pastors as well. Again, people are given to selfish ambition, and pride. Anyone who imagines that going to a congregational model of the church would eliminate this is mistaken.
As I read many of these blogs it seems that there is a great deal of resentment, and hostility toward pastors. Pride is a very subtle snare to many of God’s people. Offence is one of the greatest footholds of the enemy because it opens us up to pride.
I would recommend to any who have been offended by a pastor, or church to read the book by John Bevere, ‘The Bate of Satan.’ It will be a great help I assure you.
Pastor Tim
January 1, 2011
Tim,
I’ve been reading this blog for a bit now and I have one simple question; why do you identify yourself as “Pastor Tim” and not simply Tim? I have the spiritual gift of leadership and hospitality but would never think of identifying myself as “Leader Mark” or “Hospitalitist Mark.”
I’m just asking this as I can find no reference in the NT of Peter or Paul being addressed as Pastor Paul, Pastor Peter, Elder Paul Elder Peter etc, etc. I see admonitions in Matthew 23 against titles but not any teaching about referring to ourselves based on our giftedness or office of elder or deacon? In fact, it appears as though Jesus is juxtaposing titles with “and you are all brothers” at the end of v. 8.
I’m really just curious about this phenomenon?
Thanks,
Mark
January 1, 2011
Hi Mark,
Good question. I’m a pastor of a local congregation. It really has very little to do with ego or anything like that. I have always had people in my congregation that have called me pastor, as well as those who simply call me Tim. I’m fine with either.
When Jesus was on earth His disciples called Him Rabbi, which was very common among disciples and their teachers.
Titles are sometimes a matter of respect. Just as we call doctors by their titles as a matter of respect.
As an example, we sometimes refer to Paul simply as Paul, and other times as the apostle Paul.
While this may be more tradition that actually mandated by Scripture, I find nothing in Scripture that tells us not to practice this.
I guess one of the reasons I use this title is that I want people to realize the ministry position I am speaking from, especially in concerning some of these posts that for the most part are pretty anti-pastors.
Paul defended his ministry as an apostle, against those who tried to undermine his authority, and legitimacy. I guess as a pastor, I have realized that over the years I have unfortunately had to do the same.
(Romans 11:13 NKJV) For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
God bless,
Tim (smile)
January 2, 2011
There are some fundamental things we need to understand about the western model of church vs the house church.
A house church is voluntary association of believers among whom everyone is equal. Different gifts are evident, there are “pastors” who have that gift, along with other people who have equally important gifts, but no one has veto authority over anyone else. Elders naturally have more respect than others, but their authority comes from their depth of experience and wisdom, not from their position or their paycheck. Leadership can rotate, and the church can grow and split to start another relatively easily.
In the western model of church, we have a paid pastor with paycheck, an office, and a position of ultimate authority in his church. That’s just the way it is. No one else is allowed to take his place. If someone else preaches, the pastor still gets his paycheck and still makes the final decisions about what the church does. This gives the pastor what I call “structural pride”. People look up to him as an ultimate authority because he is being paid to be that ultimate authority. He may be wise, considerate, loving, kind, generous, and every other good quality there is, but he is still getting paid to do a job, and the church depends on him to do that job. No one else can have that job as long as he is paid to do it. He makes the final decisions. Does he not? He can get help from elders and deacons, but he makes final decisions. He is the head of his church. It is a naturally prideful position. Sorry. Unless you can step down from that position and have the church function normally in a healthy manner, the structure of the church is unbiblical. If Christ is not the head, it is not a new testament church. If Christ is the head, HE makes the final decisions. That happens only when ALL members are EQUAL (not paid) and they all are of one mind. When you get more than twenty or so people, being of one mind becomes difficult, if possible at all. You must then have a centralized authority that makes decisions. In order to grow our churches to the size they have become, centralized authority is a must. Centralized authority = Politics. Politics also exists in a house church, but in a context where people are allowed to vent their feelings in a loving atmosphere and wrestle with difficult interpersonal issues. That’s a great incentive for spiritual growth, by the way. That doesn’t happen in Big Church under a centralized authority.
January 3, 2011
Hi Ken,
It seems that your primary problem is that a pastor gets paid.
Is there something wrong with the fact that the pastor gets paid? Sorry, I think your premise is flawed.
This sounds like more of the old we’ll keep the pastor poor, and God will keep him humble traditional stuff that has been so prevalent among Christians for years.
Sorry Ken, we simply disagree about what the Scriptures teach about the government of the church.
God rewarded Moses for his leadership financially. He blessed Abraham financially. He ordained that the Levites were to be paid to care for the ministry of the temple.
The early apostles were financially rewarded for their ministry to the churches.
The workman is worthy of his wages, and they that preach the gospel are to live from the preaching of the gospel. This means that they are to be paid for their work.
It amazes me that Christians think nothing of everyone else being paid for their labor other than a pastor.
God’s people in the United States can afford to pay a pastor, along with other church ministers for their labors, as they should.
David even went so far as to pay the musicians a wage for their ministry in the temple.
Pastor Tim
January 3, 2011
I have no problem with people who do a job getting paid for that job. I just don’t think there should be a full-time paid pastor job in any church. That limits the size of the church to a much, much smaller size than most of our modern churches and it makes it intimate, personal, and small enough for any pastor to know everyone well. Not only that, but the church then doesn’t depend solely on one pastor for leadership. He can’t do everything, and leadership moves around to whoever is most suited for it at the time. Everyone is equal, and if other people in the church have the gift of pastoring, they are free to do so. In our modern model of church, one guy gets the job and he is the sole report for ultimate authority–All the time, in all circumstances.
As long as there is an official, paid pastor, we have a clergy/laity distinction. When I hear pastors say there shouldn’t be a clergy/laity distinction, it’s very interesting that the very fact they are paid to be a pastor creates that distinction. It is disingenuous to preach against that distinction while enjoying the privilege of being clergy, especially when one receives a check for it. If you’re paid to pastor, enjoy being clergy and make the best of it. You’re living the clergy/laity distinction.
I have been on another discussion board where someone pointed out how miserable many pastors are. Not in their preaching or dedication, but in the way they are treated, paid, and overworked. When the vast majority of pastors feel overworked, underpaid, have family problems as a result of pastoring, and generally get treated like dirt, I don’t think the model we’re practicing reflects God’s will.
George Barna makes it clear in Pagan Christianity that there was a very human effort to put pastors in charge of every congregation in the early years of the church. It didn’t start that way. If Jesus wanted pastors in charge of every congregation (house church, actually) he would have said so, or referred to someone as the head of each house group.
I have no difficulty with paying people who do work, especially when they dedicate a great deal of time to that work. It seems to me, though, that leadership should be organic, not official, and the love for one another engendered in the close relationships found in a small house church will ensure that whoever needs to be paid for something will get paid for it. Pastors don’t get paid and appreciated enough because they just can’t physically get close enough to the people in their church. There are just too many of them. So there isn’t the closeness between members and leaders that there ought to be, and some people like to freeload. Close relationships and genuine concern for one another tends to eliminate the freeloading aspect.
January 3, 2011
Pastors do get paid for their preaching. We have scads of megachurches, and smaller churches, where the pastors are paid very well. Is that the way the church should operate? I think the megachurches lose something very signficant in the way they operate, even though the pastor is a good guy and preaches great sermons. I go to one of those at the moment, and even though the sermons are very good, the personal ministry just doesn’t happen. There are programs to be involved in, small groups (which is a good thing), but everything revolves around the sermon on Sunday. That’s the main thing. The main thing should be the personal relationships within the church as they center around Jesus Christ. The pastor is one of those, not the main one.
Paying those who preach the gospel is definitely scriptural. No problem with that. But we’ve stripped our model of church to where preaching the gospel is the main job of the pastor, not pastoring. A great deal of time and effort is spent preparing sermons, because that is the primary job of the pastor.
What I want to see is pastors who put the relationships between the members of their flock (and them) as a higher priority than preaching. As it is, preaching is the main tool for dealing with those things, and it gets very impersonal.
The way we have structured our model of church guarantees that we have a tendency to be impersonal. It is only when we consider the relationships that tie us together in Christ more important than the preaching that we’re going to get it. Our model of church doesn’t do that.
January 4, 2011
Hi Ken,
Very well put. I definitely agree that there are problems with the organic nature of ministry, but I believe that it is not as much due to the pastor being paid, or the authority structure of the church, as it is the culture as a whole.
I think one of the greatest problems that Christians have is getting stuck in tunnel vision. I am a very black and white person as a rule, and would like to think that solutions are black and white.
Unfortunately, I find that this entire issue of ministry is by far much more complicated in our modern world. The church, just like the business world, government, and education is suffering from the consequences of the breakdown of society as a whole.
If we look at people in general, they have dramatically changed in the past 75 years. I contribute a great deal of this to several factors.
1. The urbanization of America, which tends to lead to a bit less personal relationships of people.
2. TV, and other technology that takes a great deal of peoples time and energies.
3. Materialism that takes a great deal of time and energy to maintain.
4. Longer work hours, and a society that does not know how to rest.
5. The break down in biblical standards, and an understaning of moral boundaries.
There are certainly other factors, but these effect people within the church, and their ability to affectively care for one another. People are simply too busy. They do not have the time, or do not take the time to genuinely meet the needs of one another, as the body is designed to function.
Actually, I believe that the church is to have those who care for the needs of the flock apart from the pastor, but this is much more difficult in this age of hyperactivity, where people have very little discrecionary time.
I agree that the house church is a great fit in meeting a small group of people’s needs. I simply do not believe it is a one or the other option.
Pastor Tim
January 4, 2011
There are three very excellent books that I have read over the past few years that really address some of these issues.
The first is a book by Tom Sine, which was written at the turn of the century called ‘Mustard Seed vs. McWorld.’ Tom Sine gives the reader a great understanding of the rate that the world is changing, and how the church simply is not keeping pace with these changes. Unfortunately the picture he paints is very troubling.
I just think that to imagine that if we reinvent the church as we have known it that all our troubles will be solved fails to address the larger picture of what the church is facing in this hour. This is a heart condition of the people of the world, not simply a preacher problem.
The second book is a great short read by Oz Guinness, called ‘The Timeliness, of Prophetic Untimeliness.’ The author points to the idea that all of what we have embraced as progress has not been healthy for us. He also states that this modern culture is the most invasive in the history of the world.
Culture is the real culprit that the church is facing, not the payment of preachers, or the failure of the church to meet the needs of people. If anything the church in the United States is so overindulged that it can’t stand on its own two feet.
The third book is the classic by Francis Schaeffer, called ‘The great Evangelical Disaster.’ I believe that Francis Schaeffer really exposes how that Christians in the West have moved away from the foundation of Scripture. Unfortunately this is the result of the infiltration of liberal theology in major Bible Schools. This has also found its way into evangelical Christianity as well.
While these may be a bit to digest we have to see the larger picture, or we will get off into majoring on the nonessentials.
Pastor Tim
January 4, 2011
I was saved in 1982, and have been in ministry in one capacity or another ever since. I have pastored the same church for the past 21 years, and have had my share of the heartbreak, and frustration that comes with the ministry.
I love people, and love the people of my congregation, and thank God that He has counted me faithful to place me in His service.
Ministry is about people, and as long as people are involved in anything we will never find a perfect solution. Jesus was the ultimate pastor, and He had frustrations with His own disciples.
I believe we have to step back and take a good look at where we are in history if we are going to be able to see what is really taking place in the church in the United States. As a pastor, I tend to see this from a different perspective than those who are not pastors, because I have been on both sides of the fence.
Frankly I am extremely frustrated with all of these books, and movements to reinvent the church. While every structure must be flexible, and able to change, I find a great deal of what I am reading and hearing exacerbating.
People have such a low level of respect for authority in this hour, and are so quick to jump ship and run to the next itching ear club, that it is any wonder that the church in the United States is able to get anything done. Christians are just as narcissistic as their lost neighbors.
Actually, if we do not have a nation shaking revival in the next few years I am sorry to say that I think we will have much greater things to be concerned about than the structure of ministry.
We are about 10 to 20 years at max behind Europe, where areas that use to be thriving communities of Christians are now over run by Muslims, and the population is about 1% Christian. Churches are turned into dance halls, recreation centers, and coffee shops.
The church must stop attacking and inflicting damage upon itself, or we may lose what we think we are trying to gain. While it is fine to discuss these points and try to make adjustments, I just feel that we are perhaps straining at a gnat while swallowing a camel.
Pastor Tim
January 6, 2011
This is a test post. I recived a virus and had my computer in the computer clinic for a few weeks.
I will be rejoining the conversation shortly my Brethern.
January 6, 2011
Pastor Tim,
Enjoy the dialogue with you Brother.
Love your picture by the way.
Pastor, if you would please list all of what you do in your role of “pastor”. I am curious as to what all of the number of your responsibilities that are in this role of modern pastor on a day to day, week to week, month to month, year to year, these two past decades at your present position with your congregation.
Please define the word “pastor” what it means to you.
You stated in the above sixth paragraph that ” people have such a low level of respect for authority in this hour…”
I assume you include yourself in that statement?
Please define “pastor authority”
You stated you are “excerbated” with all of what you have been reading and hearing because of the books and movements to “reinvent the church”.
Are you threatened by this perceived threat? If so why?
Personally as a member of the Ekklesia I am not ‘exacerbated’ nor do I perceive the debate or reality as threatening, but quite the opposite. Actually I am not aware of a “movement to reinvent the church.” I see many christians dysfunctional due to the current model of doing church and have lost confidence with the model and want a deeper ekklesia. I am encouraged for example that I am empowered by the Holy Spirit, included by the Holy Spirit, to freely participate and function within christianity as a whole and in gatherings in particular with my God-given gifts. And that is a good thing. Within my sphere of fellowship I am not encoutering ‘narcissistic christians just like their neighbors.’
Could it be that your present model is contributing to this narcissism and rebellion you seem to be encountering. I’m just asking please don’t think I am making a statement.
I find it quite interesting that Paul addresses all of his letters to local ekklesia’s to “all the Saints in Christ Jesus”, and none of them to the “leadership”. In addition he tells the Saints that he has confidence that they (the Saints) will work out all the troubles present, without a mention of the “leadership”.
If you would do for me as my Brother in Christ, please show me an example in context in the New Testament, a local living guy, in hierarchical authority over a fellowship, paid a salary, who sermonizes in monologue, dominating the time in the gathering every week, for 21 years?
January 6, 2011
I would like to throw out another aspect of the paralyzing senior pastor model so prevalent in the local assemblies across the country. And an aspect that is lurking just under the surface of many local assemblies across the country.
We all acknowledge that God, in His desire, created male and female different. He instructs men to be involved in leading the home, and instructs men (deliberately plural) to lead the church. Yet, in this current configuration of local assemblies, it almost works against the very goal of raising up men who lead their families, love their wives, are excellent workers and leaders in the community. Why? Because we, unintentionally I believe, send a turf-laden you’re not spiritual enough message to men through the extra-biblical clergy/laity distinction. Our message is; God wants you to lead in all of these critical areas of life; marriage, family, work and ministry. But the one area of the Christian life you’re not allowed into is leading the church. Why, well, because you’re a layman, not a clergyman.
We call men to get better at leading their family. We call men to get more involved in the local assembly. And then we wonder why they don’t…except for the faithful few. Aren’t we really saying to men; “those of you who are good at leading, well don’t forget, you’re just part of the “laity” (a wholly extra-biblical concept) so you can lead in Sunday school, or a small group, you know, those things that you’re capable of doing. But leave the real “super” leadership positions to the single one-man senior pastor in the church as we are the “professionals” with advanced degrees in ministry. We’re the ones “ordained” to the pulpit, the decision makers, the day-to-day “ministers.”
Is it any wonder why there’s an apparent disconnect between men and the local church? This notion of a clergy/laity distinction has directly contributed to many of the problems of men being involved in their local assemblies. We call men to lead and then shut the door on those who may have been excellent God-honoring servant leaders as elders. Why, because we created a wholly extra-biblical notion of classes (the “CLERGY” and the “LAITY”) again, nowhere found in Scripture. We then create wholly extra-biblical offices of pastor and senior pastor to support the wholly extra-biblical notion of the clergy/laity distinction. And having read many denomination and church positions on this, they all jump through tremendous hermeneutic hoops (including proof-texting) to defend it.
Until this practice comes to an end, there will be more and more Godly men and their families leaving the institutional church and its structures, as I have done with my family, and connecting with para-churches and small groups of other families. As a 33 year devoted follow of Jesus who’s served in many “pastoral” positions in church, I see tremendous shortsightedness in clinging onto these practices. Especially as more and more churches get in financial trouble (and there are many), less and less people are reached with the Gospel, less and less men take serious their roles as leaders in their families leading to even more dreadful data George will collect about divorce in the church in the future as he has in the past..
Now some pastors who check in to this site will demand a retraction from me because they believe it’s not their fault and that it’s a pride or authority issue with the laity. All I say to that is simply; when you adopt a extra-biblical leadership structure using modern business concepts like the CEO (senior pastor/pastor), Board of Directors (a non-1 Timothy 3 elder board), and department managers (deacons), well then, just as it is in corporate America, the buck stops with the CEO.
Having been on both sides of the fence, I personally would never want to be a senior pastor with all the American notion of responsibility…I’m wholly incapable of delivering on it. However, working in concert with a group of elders (plural) with a variety of gifts but all fitting the character qualities in 1 Timothy 3…now that’s doable. Imagine the powerful imagery that multiple elders gives to those assembling in a local community as they observe men who work jobs just as they do, care for their families just as they do, and reach a lost community just as they’re supposed to do. Juxtapose this with the single one man top down, pulpit driven operation currently so prevalent in American assemblies.
Just my thoughts.
January 7, 2011
Thanks Ken,
I do not believe that the function of the pastor is extra biblical, as Ephesians 4:11-16 points out. Any organization needs leadership, and God’s church is no exception to this rule. While there may be some pastors that are ego driven, and hang onto power, I do not believe that it is a common occurrence.
Frankly I don’t see a great deal of men striving to be pastors or even mentioning that they want to stand in such a position. Could it be that they simply are not called, rather than pastors are holding them out of these positions?
Every ministry gifting has an element of calling and gifting to function within that capacity. When people are called, and answer that call they will be equipped and anointed to carry out that call. Simply put, we are not all called to the same position.
I don’t serve my congregation from the capacity that I am super spiritual, and they are not, but my congregation does show me respect as a pastor, and I see nothing wrong with this in the least. I have always encouraged people to aspire to leadership, and frankly if they wanted to serve as pastors I would make place for that.
Many larger churches have associate pastors who carry out a great deal of the same roles as the senior pastor. I don’t believe that this is a matter of pastors hanging onto power etc.
Again, we simply disagree about the model of church leadership. You seem to believe that some type of congregational model of leadership is the biblical model, I do not. If the congregational model works for you, and you want to go with that, then that is fine. The main objective is that the gospel is preached.
I have learned that once a person determines to follow a path it is nearly impossible to change their minds. I disagree with the anti established church movement, and believe it to be just as harmful in many respects as the abuses by the traditional model of the church. However I realize that there are those who are abandoning the established church for various reasons, and they will continue to do so no matter what I do as a pastor.
I can only impact what I can influence within my ability, and so I will continue to lead my local church, and attempt to join with other pastors, and their congregations to do the same, and reach the world with the gospel.
The church in the West has done fine for centuries when we lived separated lives from the culture, so again I contend that this is more of a culture problem than a pastor problem.
Tim
January 7, 2011
Pastor Tim,
I am enjoying the conversation.
I too agree with you on a pastor “function” and pastor participation. But Scripturally that pastor function and participation holds no precedence or greater importance over any other gifting or ministry function and participation within the ekklesia. Where does it say that a pastor runs the show? Where does it say anybody runs the show, or needs to? Were all civil adults filled with His Holy Spirit and able to play nice. I do not agree with the predominate current modern model pastor office, position, hierarchical ordering that is presently the norm. As our brothers Ken and Mark have so eloquently pointed out. A pastor function does not translate Scripturally to the modern model pastor office in its practical outworking of hierarchical positional style leadership. It promotes a real and definite clergy/laity distinction which is no where to be found or even implied within the New Testament. In fact it is my belief that the current modern pastor model that is so dominate, usurps the position and Lordship of Jesus Christ as He Heads His Church through and by the Holy Spirit. It’s His Church and He is quite capable of running it, even at the local level. My feeling is that most folks who call themselves pastor are really mostly teachers. But they take on the whole host of other myriad of roles running a congregation just to be able to function in their teaching gift. This is not to say that teaching and sermonizing are the same thing either. I am unable to find the weekly, time consuming, sermon monologue, in the New Testament either.
I am curious though what our typical modern styled pastor would do with the likes of me for instance within the workings of his average steepled building on the street corner? This is a rhetorical question, I already know the answer.
My particular giftings and callings don’t meld well with a rote, stiff, written in stone, liturgical, Sunday morning, mute fest of pew riding.
I tend to travel the highways and the byways of America and Mexico compelling the poor the lost the sick the lame the drunk the high the orphan the homeless. They all smell and don’t take a bath, and leave stains on the new upholstered pews and new carpet and make funny noises and sounds and could care less about your 4 point salvation speel because the 7 year old little girl had her head caved in by her drunk and high parents who didn’t want her anymore and threw her away in the ditch so they could buy the next pack of cigarettes and bottle of ripple and she didn’t fit in with the plan.
The typical American steeple building can’t help anyway though because they spent 80% of the money collected to pay the guy they hired to do the religion, and build and maintain the building to do the religion in Sunday morning for a couple hours before they go to the restuarant if the pastor gets them out early before the pentacostals and methodists and baptists line up out the building at red lobster.
What would you allow me to do pastor in your grand scheme of things?