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	<title>Comments on: Misunderstanding Immorality</title>
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	<description>Facilitating A Spiritual And Moral Revolution</description>
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		<title>By: Adri Braam</title>
		<link>http://www.georgebarna.com/2010/07/misunderstanding-immorality/comment-page-1/#comment-2773</link>
		<dc:creator>Adri Braam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Nov 2010 17:18:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.georgebarna.com/?p=453#comment-2773</guid>
		<description>Thanks Sondra,
Of course the first question that comes to my mind is What made you change? Over the years I’ve also talked to quite a few atheists on Craigslist and Atheist Bus Campaign.
Everyone knows that the atmosphere in a classroom changes when the teacher leaves. The lower the grade the bigger the difference. Are we influenced by road signs along the highway saying that traffic is monitored from above? Do we slow down as soon as we see a police cruiser on the side of the road?
What I am getting at is how would our spiritual driving or moral behaviour be if we decided there is no supervision of any kind other than that of other people?
Our every thought, love and motive is monitored from above whether we know it or not because we are here for a reason. What we do with the thoughts that come into our heads, because our brain is like a radio receiver, we determine what we love and that determines our motive for whatever we decide to do. If we do this long enough we develop a character and that is the most important thing we do because that is the only ‘thing’ we take with us when our body dies. 
Since we are very much our character, that is the only thing which determines where we go after death. Where we will fit in and be comfortable and thus happy.
There is hardly a better place to see ‘who’ we are than in traffic. We are free to go where ever we want to go in whatever way. 
But be careful, someone is watching :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Sondra,<br />
Of course the first question that comes to my mind is What made you change? Over the years I’ve also talked to quite a few atheists on Craigslist and Atheist Bus Campaign.<br />
Everyone knows that the atmosphere in a classroom changes when the teacher leaves. The lower the grade the bigger the difference. Are we influenced by road signs along the highway saying that traffic is monitored from above? Do we slow down as soon as we see a police cruiser on the side of the road?<br />
What I am getting at is how would our spiritual driving or moral behaviour be if we decided there is no supervision of any kind other than that of other people?<br />
Our every thought, love and motive is monitored from above whether we know it or not because we are here for a reason. What we do with the thoughts that come into our heads, because our brain is like a radio receiver, we determine what we love and that determines our motive for whatever we decide to do. If we do this long enough we develop a character and that is the most important thing we do because that is the only ‘thing’ we take with us when our body dies.<br />
Since we are very much our character, that is the only thing which determines where we go after death. Where we will fit in and be comfortable and thus happy.<br />
There is hardly a better place to see ‘who’ we are than in traffic. We are free to go where ever we want to go in whatever way.<br />
But be careful, someone is watching <img src='http://www.georgebarna.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://www.georgebarna.com/2010/07/misunderstanding-immorality/comment-page-1/#comment-2555</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Oct 2010 17:23:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.georgebarna.com/?p=453#comment-2555</guid>
		<description>Mark Turney wrote: &quot;God is the only viable absolute by which everything else can be judged.&quot;

But this only makes sense if everyone agrees on the same interpretation of the Christian god as well as the scriptures, and this is far from the case.  Some Christians support gay marriage, others are opposed.  Some are pro-choice, some not.  Some believe that Jesus himself was a sinner, while other Christians find that idea blasphemous.

Which absolutes are you referring to?  And why should other Christians agree with them?  How is one to decide?  It seems inevitable that you must appeal to human reason in deciding such a dispute, and if you acknowledge that necessity, then that opens the door to countenancing two further questions: Haven&#039;t believers been using human reason all along to justify their a priori beliefs?  And further, why can&#039;t human reason without god decide matters of morality?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark Turney wrote: &#8220;God is the only viable absolute by which everything else can be judged.&#8221;</p>
<p>But this only makes sense if everyone agrees on the same interpretation of the Christian god as well as the scriptures, and this is far from the case.  Some Christians support gay marriage, others are opposed.  Some are pro-choice, some not.  Some believe that Jesus himself was a sinner, while other Christians find that idea blasphemous.</p>
<p>Which absolutes are you referring to?  And why should other Christians agree with them?  How is one to decide?  It seems inevitable that you must appeal to human reason in deciding such a dispute, and if you acknowledge that necessity, then that opens the door to countenancing two further questions: Haven&#8217;t believers been using human reason all along to justify their a priori beliefs?  And further, why can&#8217;t human reason without god decide matters of morality?</p>
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		<title>By: SondraS</title>
		<link>http://www.georgebarna.com/2010/07/misunderstanding-immorality/comment-page-1/#comment-2426</link>
		<dc:creator>SondraS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Oct 2010 18:39:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.georgebarna.com/?p=453#comment-2426</guid>
		<description>As an atheist (my former self), I would say that what made me make moral decisions was a natural instinct toward self protection.  I felt bad when I hurt others so I learned not to hurt others.  Also when I knew pain, and I didn&#039;t like it, I didn&#039;t want others to suffer injustice from me.

As a person of great faith now, however, my moral judgments come from a much higher authority.  I treat others with the dignity and preciousness that my creator has treated me.  I seek the lightness in the being of others to uplift them as one of God&#039;s own.  I now understand what Jesus meant when he said to love my neighbor as myself because my neighbor is me as I am God&#039;s own.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As an atheist (my former self), I would say that what made me make moral decisions was a natural instinct toward self protection.  I felt bad when I hurt others so I learned not to hurt others.  Also when I knew pain, and I didn&#8217;t like it, I didn&#8217;t want others to suffer injustice from me.</p>
<p>As a person of great faith now, however, my moral judgments come from a much higher authority.  I treat others with the dignity and preciousness that my creator has treated me.  I seek the lightness in the being of others to uplift them as one of God&#8217;s own.  I now understand what Jesus meant when he said to love my neighbor as myself because my neighbor is me as I am God&#8217;s own.</p>
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		<title>By: ivy</title>
		<link>http://www.georgebarna.com/2010/07/misunderstanding-immorality/comment-page-1/#comment-2261</link>
		<dc:creator>ivy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Sep 2010 18:16:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.georgebarna.com/?p=453#comment-2261</guid>
		<description>Brooke, I agree with about 90% of what you said and I definitely agree with the spirit in which you said it.  I do think that today, Christians are not calling themselves to be of higher moral character while at the same time pointing judgmental fingers at non-believers.  This.  This is my problem with American Christianity.

However, I slightly disagree with the notion that we should be working through commonality to build consensus with anyone who is not of the Christian faith.  Maybe it is the semantics of your statement that I disagree with and not the philosophy.  One does need to find common ground with a stranger in order to eventually be called a friend.

Your final idea; however, I vehemently disagree with.  &quot;Second, most people have an intrinsic desire to be good.&quot;

That is patently false and diametrically opposed to God&#039;s Word that says that all fall short of the glory of God, that says that we were all born in sin, that says that if we are not of God, we of our father the devil.

So, no, no one has a intrinisic desire to do good, until they have been saved by Amazing Grace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brooke, I agree with about 90% of what you said and I definitely agree with the spirit in which you said it.  I do think that today, Christians are not calling themselves to be of higher moral character while at the same time pointing judgmental fingers at non-believers.  This.  This is my problem with American Christianity.</p>
<p>However, I slightly disagree with the notion that we should be working through commonality to build consensus with anyone who is not of the Christian faith.  Maybe it is the semantics of your statement that I disagree with and not the philosophy.  One does need to find common ground with a stranger in order to eventually be called a friend.</p>
<p>Your final idea; however, I vehemently disagree with.  &#8220;Second, most people have an intrinsic desire to be good.&#8221;</p>
<p>That is patently false and diametrically opposed to God&#8217;s Word that says that all fall short of the glory of God, that says that we were all born in sin, that says that if we are not of God, we of our father the devil.</p>
<p>So, no, no one has a intrinisic desire to do good, until they have been saved by Amazing Grace.</p>
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		<title>By: KenS</title>
		<link>http://www.georgebarna.com/2010/07/misunderstanding-immorality/comment-page-1/#comment-2144</link>
		<dc:creator>KenS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 16:53:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.georgebarna.com/?p=453#comment-2144</guid>
		<description>There are different kinds of atheists.  There are the evangelical atheists, like Richard Dawkins, who are beyond any kind of argument.  They are militant about destroying any kind of religious faith, but especially Christian faith, and reason is not really part of their argument.  They compare rather favorably to dogmatic fundamentalists who pound people with their Bibles and their &#039;evangelism&#039;, if you can call it that.

check this link for an example of this:
http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/culturelab/2010/06/bernard-beckett-converting-from-atheism.html

Then you have the atheists who had a bad experience with their father and are reacting from deep emotional hurt.  These people need plain old love and understanding, if you can get past the anger and hurt.

Then you have atheists who are genuine truth-seekers, and have come to their atheism by observing the behavior and beliefs of religious institutions and the folks who propagate them.  They are open to well-reasoned arguments and genuine love, and you aren&#039;t going to fool them with fancy religious BS of any kind.  You must prove to them that you are real and genuinely interested in the truth just as they are.  Anything less and you&#039;re lost before you start.

Then you have to determine if the person is truly seeking truth or are they arguing from the fundamentally human position of &quot;I want to do what I want to do and I don&#039;t want anyone, especially God, telling me I can&#039;t&quot;.   This argument is the core of immorality and sin itself.  It is the &quot;I will&quot; of Isaiah 14 which has been taken to every extreme throughout history, and it is the one attitude that must be repented of for someone to be born again and receive the life of the Holy Spirit.

The bottom line here is that religious dogma doesn&#039;t mean anything to any of these people, nor does it really mean anything to anyone else, other than those who are invested in it.  Being a Christian is not about dogma.  It is about living out the life of God himself in our daily lives, under the direction of the Holy Spirit.  Since we are so fallible, God has given us an unchanging written record of His Word to us that we can refer to for guidance in living that life. We need to follow what it says (not necessarily the official interpretations of what it says).

What virtually destroys this is the modern model of the evangelical church.  One guy stands behind a pulpit and tells us all how to live our lives.  How many people in the congregation does he really know? How many CAN he know?  Does he feel the pain of every family that is out of work and struggling to feed their children?  Does he feel the joy of each new married couple?  Is he able to participate in the intellectual struggles people are having in trying to figure out what Christianity means to them?  He simply isn&#039;t big enough to do all that.  He has to preach to a very limited caricature of who sits in his congregation and simply ignore everyone who doesn&#039;t fit that caricature.  So a few people get helped and a lot of people get ignored, which allows all kinds of immorality with no challenge.  Who&#039;s going to challenge it?  Where in this structure can it ever be exposed?

However, if you have a small group of believers who all know and love each other, any immorality is quickly exposed, and needs can also be addressed.  With no designated pastor, Jesus Christ leads the group and the Holy Spirit is free to move any way he wants.  When we assign a duly trained religious person to lead a group, we immediately remove the group from the Holy Spirit&#039;s control and put it under human control.  This is the fundamental problem with the modern church.  The whole model is wrong and unbiblical.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are different kinds of atheists.  There are the evangelical atheists, like Richard Dawkins, who are beyond any kind of argument.  They are militant about destroying any kind of religious faith, but especially Christian faith, and reason is not really part of their argument.  They compare rather favorably to dogmatic fundamentalists who pound people with their Bibles and their &#8216;evangelism&#8217;, if you can call it that.</p>
<p>check this link for an example of this:<br />
<a href="http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/culturelab/2010/06/bernard-beckett-converting-from-atheism.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/culturelab/2010/06/bernard-beckett-converting-from-atheism.html</a></p>
<p>Then you have the atheists who had a bad experience with their father and are reacting from deep emotional hurt.  These people need plain old love and understanding, if you can get past the anger and hurt.</p>
<p>Then you have atheists who are genuine truth-seekers, and have come to their atheism by observing the behavior and beliefs of religious institutions and the folks who propagate them.  They are open to well-reasoned arguments and genuine love, and you aren&#8217;t going to fool them with fancy religious BS of any kind.  You must prove to them that you are real and genuinely interested in the truth just as they are.  Anything less and you&#8217;re lost before you start.</p>
<p>Then you have to determine if the person is truly seeking truth or are they arguing from the fundamentally human position of &#8220;I want to do what I want to do and I don&#8217;t want anyone, especially God, telling me I can&#8217;t&#8221;.   This argument is the core of immorality and sin itself.  It is the &#8220;I will&#8221; of Isaiah 14 which has been taken to every extreme throughout history, and it is the one attitude that must be repented of for someone to be born again and receive the life of the Holy Spirit.</p>
<p>The bottom line here is that religious dogma doesn&#8217;t mean anything to any of these people, nor does it really mean anything to anyone else, other than those who are invested in it.  Being a Christian is not about dogma.  It is about living out the life of God himself in our daily lives, under the direction of the Holy Spirit.  Since we are so fallible, God has given us an unchanging written record of His Word to us that we can refer to for guidance in living that life. We need to follow what it says (not necessarily the official interpretations of what it says).</p>
<p>What virtually destroys this is the modern model of the evangelical church.  One guy stands behind a pulpit and tells us all how to live our lives.  How many people in the congregation does he really know? How many CAN he know?  Does he feel the pain of every family that is out of work and struggling to feed their children?  Does he feel the joy of each new married couple?  Is he able to participate in the intellectual struggles people are having in trying to figure out what Christianity means to them?  He simply isn&#8217;t big enough to do all that.  He has to preach to a very limited caricature of who sits in his congregation and simply ignore everyone who doesn&#8217;t fit that caricature.  So a few people get helped and a lot of people get ignored, which allows all kinds of immorality with no challenge.  Who&#8217;s going to challenge it?  Where in this structure can it ever be exposed?</p>
<p>However, if you have a small group of believers who all know and love each other, any immorality is quickly exposed, and needs can also be addressed.  With no designated pastor, Jesus Christ leads the group and the Holy Spirit is free to move any way he wants.  When we assign a duly trained religious person to lead a group, we immediately remove the group from the Holy Spirit&#8217;s control and put it under human control.  This is the fundamental problem with the modern church.  The whole model is wrong and unbiblical.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Olson</title>
		<link>http://www.georgebarna.com/2010/07/misunderstanding-immorality/comment-page-1/#comment-1808</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Olson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Aug 2010 15:54:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.georgebarna.com/?p=453#comment-1808</guid>
		<description>I want to say that I am not a homosexual nor do I agree with homosexual life. I am wrestling with what I perceive to be a double standard with certian sins within Christianity. Some are winked at, others not.
Homosexuality seems to be one that is singled out as particularly nasty, but Adultery, Swindling, Greed, Self Righteousness, Judgemental, Unforgiveness, are not so much so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I want to say that I am not a homosexual nor do I agree with homosexual life. I am wrestling with what I perceive to be a double standard with certian sins within Christianity. Some are winked at, others not.<br />
Homosexuality seems to be one that is singled out as particularly nasty, but Adultery, Swindling, Greed, Self Righteousness, Judgemental, Unforgiveness, are not so much so.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Olson</title>
		<link>http://www.georgebarna.com/2010/07/misunderstanding-immorality/comment-page-1/#comment-1803</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Olson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Aug 2010 15:14:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.georgebarna.com/?p=453#comment-1803</guid>
		<description>My experience with Atheism is quite different. I am debating a higly zealous evangelizing informed organized effective Atheism. Much more organized and zealous than Christianity is in effectively communicating the Gospel of Jesus Christ. They are making inroads into the marginal western professing christian and young christian going off to the centers of world higher education system. Most professors are zealots in confronting christianity with neo-Darwinism, macro-evolution, humanism and naturalism, and outright zealous Atheism. The christian Church is loosing this battle. What greases the wheels so to speak is Darwinism evolution, which is even touted now within Catholic church and the Protestant church. I do not understand why the Christian Church is not supporting and funding top notch ID research? But the real issue is that Christianity is doing a terrible job of effectively discipling and teaching Christians the faith, how to articulate it and how to live it before men in community. The Athiest dominated Modern Scientific Community is robbing the faith of too many marginal professing christians going off to college and churning out educated heathens. The results are being seen in unprincipled men and woman in all areas of endeaver, without strong moral character. The immorality of our culture is in direct proportion to the elevation of Naturalism/Humanism based secular education over a well informed education and equiped faith in the Person of Jesus Christ.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My experience with Atheism is quite different. I am debating a higly zealous evangelizing informed organized effective Atheism. Much more organized and zealous than Christianity is in effectively communicating the Gospel of Jesus Christ. They are making inroads into the marginal western professing christian and young christian going off to the centers of world higher education system. Most professors are zealots in confronting christianity with neo-Darwinism, macro-evolution, humanism and naturalism, and outright zealous Atheism. The christian Church is loosing this battle. What greases the wheels so to speak is Darwinism evolution, which is even touted now within Catholic church and the Protestant church. I do not understand why the Christian Church is not supporting and funding top notch ID research? But the real issue is that Christianity is doing a terrible job of effectively discipling and teaching Christians the faith, how to articulate it and how to live it before men in community. The Athiest dominated Modern Scientific Community is robbing the faith of too many marginal professing christians going off to college and churning out educated heathens. The results are being seen in unprincipled men and woman in all areas of endeaver, without strong moral character. The immorality of our culture is in direct proportion to the elevation of Naturalism/Humanism based secular education over a well informed education and equiped faith in the Person of Jesus Christ.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Olson</title>
		<link>http://www.georgebarna.com/2010/07/misunderstanding-immorality/comment-page-1/#comment-1800</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Olson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Aug 2010 14:35:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.georgebarna.com/?p=453#comment-1800</guid>
		<description>This does not go to the heart of the issue. If there was only one known divorced individual for reasons other than adultery, remarried, and accepted with the local congregation with open arms, it does illustrate the point of prejudice towards homosexuals within Christianity and not against divorce within Christianity. Divorce is a huge problem in Christianity and allowed within the community of believers, homosexuality is not a huge problem but they are shunned from the community of believers.
Do you see this as a double standard?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This does not go to the heart of the issue. If there was only one known divorced individual for reasons other than adultery, remarried, and accepted with the local congregation with open arms, it does illustrate the point of prejudice towards homosexuals within Christianity and not against divorce within Christianity. Divorce is a huge problem in Christianity and allowed within the community of believers, homosexuality is not a huge problem but they are shunned from the community of believers.<br />
Do you see this as a double standard?</p>
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		<title>By: shawbrooke</title>
		<link>http://www.georgebarna.com/2010/07/misunderstanding-immorality/comment-page-1/#comment-1328</link>
		<dc:creator>shawbrooke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jul 2010 14:07:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.georgebarna.com/?p=453#comment-1328</guid>
		<description>My experience is that the percentage of divorces among Christians where adultery is not a factor is very, very low. Our culture encourages us to ascribe the &quot;fault&quot; for adultery to both parties in a marriage, no matter who is the adulterer. As a result, whether or not adultery is an issue is often not publicly known. I&#039;ve known several divorces where one spouse was unaware of the adultery until years after the marriage breakup, although everyone at work knew. 

One wrong does not justify another wrong. No matter what a person&#039;s opinions on whether someone else&#039;s marriage does or does not qualify, nothing justifies ignoring the very unambiguous Biblical instruction about homosexuality not being part of Christian communities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My experience is that the percentage of divorces among Christians where adultery is not a factor is very, very low. Our culture encourages us to ascribe the &#8220;fault&#8221; for adultery to both parties in a marriage, no matter who is the adulterer. As a result, whether or not adultery is an issue is often not publicly known. I&#8217;ve known several divorces where one spouse was unaware of the adultery until years after the marriage breakup, although everyone at work knew. </p>
<p>One wrong does not justify another wrong. No matter what a person&#8217;s opinions on whether someone else&#8217;s marriage does or does not qualify, nothing justifies ignoring the very unambiguous Biblical instruction about homosexuality not being part of Christian communities.</p>
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		<title>By: shawbrooke</title>
		<link>http://www.georgebarna.com/2010/07/misunderstanding-immorality/comment-page-1/#comment-1325</link>
		<dc:creator>shawbrooke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jul 2010 13:55:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.georgebarna.com/?p=453#comment-1325</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve found it quite instructive to meet the siblings of evangelical atheists that claim to be formerly church going. Many of the sibs are church going, many find it a stretch to find whatever the sib experienced in their church, and most cannot figure out what happened to their sib. 

An interesting note from the sibs is that many of the evangelical atheists adopted the views of an adult in authority, like a teacher or uncle, when in junior high.

A study needs to be done. The atheists I know are obviously not a random sample. I tell them that they are &quot;casting their pearls before swine&quot; because I&#039;m committed to faith. Then I&#039;m freed to engage the many who want to actually engage with others. But if course that leaves them to find someone who can be obligated and who will not look into whether the atheists&#039; claims are true. I&#039;m still struggling with what is the best path.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve found it quite instructive to meet the siblings of evangelical atheists that claim to be formerly church going. Many of the sibs are church going, many find it a stretch to find whatever the sib experienced in their church, and most cannot figure out what happened to their sib. </p>
<p>An interesting note from the sibs is that many of the evangelical atheists adopted the views of an adult in authority, like a teacher or uncle, when in junior high.</p>
<p>A study needs to be done. The atheists I know are obviously not a random sample. I tell them that they are &#8220;casting their pearls before swine&#8221; because I&#8217;m committed to faith. Then I&#8217;m freed to engage the many who want to actually engage with others. But if course that leaves them to find someone who can be obligated and who will not look into whether the atheists&#8217; claims are true. I&#8217;m still struggling with what is the best path.</p>
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