Some of my recent reading has included arguments by atheists regarding their take on the relationship between faith and morality. One particular atheist writer, Dennis Ray, contends that religious behavior has little or no impact on morality, an argument based largely on research I conducted showing that the divorce rates of born again Christians and non-Christians are indistinguishable, and that atheists have a lower divorce rate than does the born again segment.
This is a superficial use of the data, ignoring the reasons for the apparent discrepancy between atheists and born agains. For instance, merely looking at the divorce numbers overlooks the fact that atheists have less divorce because they marry less often; they tend to substitute cohabitation for marriage, and those relationships have a shorter duration than marriages.
Another common error in such arguments is that of assuming that being Christian is synonymous with being morally perfect. As any thinking Christian will admit, we remain sinners – aware of our moral failings, convicted of our moral imperfections, and seeking to raise our game to a higher level. I am not aware of any mature Christians who claim moral superiority over other people – that would be judgmental, which itself is a moral failing – but know many who lament the fact that Americans (be they atheist, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Jewish or otherwise) are not living up to a higher moral standard.
Another dimension of the atheist arguments I have recently read is that there is no standard to live up to; morally, in that view, is a personal choice, based on their determination of what serves their needs best. To me, that’s really scary since that renders murder, rape and other atrocities morally viable if so determined by personal preference.
It is abundantly easy to identify social statistics that support any desired perspective. What’s harder is to offer a compelling, comprehensive and viable worldview that does not have God’s moral standards at the center.
July 5, 2010
“Another dimension of the atheist arguments I have recently read is that there is no standard to live up to; morally, in that view, is a personal choice, based on their determination of what serves their needs best. To me, that’s really scary since that renders murder, rape and other atrocities morally viable if so determined by personal preference.”
I’m surprised you’d find that any scarier than the fact that murder, rape and other atrocities are morally viable if so determined by whatever beliefs a person has about their god(s).
July 26, 2010
The Christian faith teaches that sex and voluntary, public commitment in marriage go together and Christians are pro life. Most Christians will identify rape and murder as evidence of mental illness or serious lapses of faith and behavior from which people need protection. Naturally Christians then identify as scary the idea that it is okay for someone to rape and murder if the rapist and murderer want to rape and murder.
July 5, 2010
When an atheist/agnostic speaks of something being right or wrong, I always ask, “On what basis?” Many claim that human society is such a basis, yet when I bring up the fact that NAZI Germany decided that killing Jews was morally viable, they say, “They were wrong.” And so we dance in a circle. I’m reminded of Schaeffer’s famous statement: “If there are no absolutes by which society can be judged, then society is absolute.” God is the only viable absolute by which everything else can be judged.
July 9, 2010
I have been revisiting this post for a couple of days, waiting to see what happens with it. I’m really surprised it hasn’t generated more comments. The first thing that strikes me about this post is that we, as Christians, are supposed to set ourselves apart. If we are failing to do that, the fault does not lie with the atheists who point that out. I am reminded of the bumper sticker that says, “Christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven.” I’ve always reallly hated that bumper sticker. We claim to strive toward a higher standard, but we are willing to settle for the fact that we will fail to reach that standard pretty much as often as the next guy. Maybe it is simply not possible to set ourselves apart this way. This is the way of the Pharisees. Jesus gave us a new way. Jesus fulfilled the law because we never could. Then Jesus beseeched us to love our fellow man the way He has loved us. I submit that our failure to do this is our biggest moral failing. We must set ourselves apart with love.
The second thing that strikes me about this post is that I don’t think it is helpful to engage in Christians vs. atheists dialogue. Atheists are not the enemy. The assumption that all atheists are immoral is as incorrect as the assumption that all Christians are moral. This dialogue is divisive. If we could focus on common ground instead of on differences, we could work together toward common goals instead of tearing each other down. Atheists are, after all, just people. They have families, dreams, goals. Most of them are loving, caring, and generous. We are called to love them. Our loving them would be the best demonstration of Christ’s love that we could give. If we truly demonstrate Christ’s love to people and they turn away, that is on them. But we cannot quote scripture to people in one breath and tear them down with the next breath and then blame THEM for not understanding God. A rising tide lifts all boats. When we elevate those around us, we elevate ourselves.
Finally, when you take a statement that atheists believe that there is no standard to live up to and conclude that that leaves murder, rape, and other atrocities as morally viable options that is simply inflammatory and ignorant. You are ignoring two very important facts. First, murder, rape, and other atrocities have been committed in the name of God (all gods) for as long as people have been worshipping gods. (Is this the work of God? No. This is the work of psychopaths and sociopaths. Unfortunately, people of faith are just as vulnerable to mental illness as non-believers.) Second, most people have an intrinsic desire to be good. God created us in His image whether we acknowledge Him or not. Christians attribute this desire to our faith, others attribute it to something else, but it is there. When we seek out similarities instead of dwelling on differences, we are able to reach out in love instead of lashing out in fear.
July 12, 2010
It’s the clergy stupid.
Today, Jesus would say,”Beware of the leaven (doctrine) of the clergy.”
Churches and seminaries have evolved to being INIQUITY INSTITUTIONS that perpetuate the criminal (Jer 17:9/Rom 8:7) mindset. Antinominanism has increased to the point that if one mentions too much of the moral law, they run the risk of being stigmatized as a legalist.
Modern doctrine has trashed any concept in the church related to victory over sin.
Goals mentioned in Jude 24, Eph 4:12, 2 Cor 7:1 dealing with faultless, perfect and holy lives has been exchanged for shallow, religious vitamin therapy or damage control sermons.
Those with biblical insight or wisdom can see that almost all clergy have become more dangerous to modern society than Islamic fanatic terrorists.
Jesus would say like he did 2000 years ago…”You are of your father the devil”
Hosea said it to the clergy in Hos 4:6…the clergy will get pink slips from God.
July 12, 2010
Hey Jim
I was curious about your comment of it being ALL the problem of clergy.
I agree that there are many problems among clergy. My experience is that I would rather trust them than the average person who claims to be a christian.
What fuels your fire against the clergy?
July 12, 2010
Hey Gordon,
I appreciate the interest. My post is the result of 50 years of church experience in dozens of churches.
Let me dismiss the “ALL” word first. Noah preached for 120 years and few got on the ark, so I can not blame ALL.
My wake up time was the several years being taught by John MacArthur Jr. Even though I am not on the same page with some of his doctrines, his effort at homiletics taught me to compare the lazy, untrained with the ones who put in a fair amount of time.
My persuasion is that 99+% of Christianity is infected by false doctrine , some of which is so basic that it insults JESUS, the Holy Spirit and the bible authors. (clue>> Google – Mithras/Dec 25 and/or SUNday)
The prophets, Jesus, Paul, James, John and Peter all warned of false teachers in their writings or words.
Humans are deceived, LAW trashing, GOD hating rebellious criminals on penal colony earth run by warden/god SATAN.
The gospel of grace is to bring at one ment with god and also to decrimialize Earthlings, but most reject or embrace a false gospel.
Many atheists have, with simple reasoning, detected some of the grossest nonsense that is presented from pulpits.
If some of the well know popular preachers of 100 years ago heard most of the sermons today, they would be very upset.
July 13, 2010
Hey Jim.
I have only been part of 5 churches in my 48 years.
The first as a young child where I would not be a good observer. Our family moved when I was in grade 5, so I don’t think the opinions of a 10 year old would carry much weight. My remembrance is if a number of Godly people who lived out their faith in a way that proved it was real.
My second church experience was an excellent church. My teen years included the normal stuff of my culture (Eastern Canada) including parties, drugs, peer pressure and other sinfulness. I got saved around grade 7 because God was working by His Spirit to convict me of my sin and of Jesus’ righteousness.
The next church I was a part of was a little country church that called me to be their pastor (I was 27 years old, and newly married). Looking back 20+ years I would say my preaching to the unsaved focused on conviction of sin and the need for grace and salvation. My preaching / teaching in the smaller setting of our prayer meetings (mostly saved people serving Jesus) focused on our need for obedience and on God’s holiness.
Through those years my primary teachers (outside the Bible) would be the old puritan preachers that I appreciate so much. My assessment of that church was that close to half were serious about their faith and obedience to Jesus. The other half were either deceived (thought they were Christian but showed no fruit I could see) or combining aspects of Christianity with paganism or other false teachings.
By the end of my time there I could see some change, with more people more serious about searching the scriptures to make sure we got our information and opinions from God’s word.
After 7 years of ministry in that rural community I heard God’s call to a new church. It was sad to leave a place where we saw such clear evidence of God at work. The church grew in numbers and in devotion to God while we were there. It is a heartbreak for me to visit that community now, as the church has had some bad pastoral experiences since 1995.
The next church (7+ years) had different problems. In the first 6 months we asked 6 people to leave because of slander / gossip and rebellion. After that the church grew as God brought people to salvation. My own opinion is that the angry / divisive people in the church were killing many ministry opportunities. They were so ready to fight over petty issues. The church really began to grow when those divisions were settled through church discipline and the healing that slowly followed. After 7+ years we were called to an urban setting. This has been my most difficult experience in pastoring. It is a small church (65+ on a Sunday morning). On a good day we get 20% of our Sunday people to prayer meeting. I feel that the older people have better “doctrine”, but they are unable to win anyone for Christ for a variety of reasons. (By their fruit you will know them). The younger ones (under 40 years old) are influenced by all kinds of false teaching and po/mo world view. I’m not sure how they will win any to Christ.
Even worse (for me as a pastor), I am not sure how God wants me to lead / teach / serve in that setting, and I am not sure (on a human level) if I am the man for the job.
With all that background laid bare, I would love to hear how you would proceed to teach / serve if you were in my place.
Any suggestions?
July 14, 2010
Hey Gordon,
Suggestions? Well, I will let you know that I am not a person who just says…”You got a tough one, I’ll pray for you”
You are dealing with what Jesus , prophets and teachers have always dealt with…the autonomous, rebellious, criminal mind. Some will wake up after going through the school of hard knocks/crisis. I usually start my teaching with..S-I-R…what is significant, interesting, relevant? I do this because most who go to church do not find even the bible or spiritual matters so. There are competing interests (thorns) in the world. Humans are carnal-fleshly , not spiritual.
Also, almost all of the church is deceived/Laodicea (Matt 24:24/Rev 3:17)
2 things –
Like Jesus did, he did not grab disciples from the clergy. He grabbed a select few who followed and would consecrate themselves to the mission.
Secondly, what do you expect from people who hear 30 minutes of ancient religious history and the rest of the week are watching tv, movies, sports or worse?
Stay away from using 1st person and 2nd person pronouns in a sermon. Most sermons are damage control, vitamin therapy, subtle chewouts which offend the audience.
I use 3rd person pronouns and let the Spirit do its work.
Key basic/foundational terms have been corrupted that give the audience a false sense of security…gospel , grace and salvation.
Most have not heard the authentic gospel or the true defintion of grace or what salvation /saved really is…so they think they are fine and just are on cruise control.
Most have heard a bloody/red liquid superstitious gospel, iniquity perpetuating greasy grace and a forensic/legalistic spin on salvation.
July 26, 2010
We are so careful not to be prejudiced about other groups and we should not be prejudiced against the clergy either. Prejudice often happens when the faults of a few are ascribed to the many who are innocent of those faults. The media sometimes feeds prejudice, such as when the media fail to point out the consistent finding that the rate of sexual abuse by priests in the US is LOWER than the rate of sexual abuse by men who are not priests.
Look at the observable facts. See an exception for what it is.
July 12, 2010
I have learned that you can make statistics say whatever you want them to say.
As I have been part of the church world for many years I have seen many of the problems that have developed among God’s people. Our American churches are in desperate need of help. So many offer solutions: more prayer (Which is needed); return to biblical roots (Which is a must); join in the latest fade (Not recommended) or just leaving the church and starting one of our own.
Christians have been criticizing the church for many years, I guess with good reason. However, if we are criticizing each other and judging one another, is it an wonder that the world around us, atheists included would, decide that our Jesus must be a farce. Why would anyone want to join a group of people who teach love and grace but fail to give it to each other?
Perhaps God has placed so many different people within a certain congregation who have different personalities and frailties to teach us about forgiveness, grace, love and compassion. Once we have learned that lesson with each other we can model it within our world and point people (even the atheists) to Jesus.
July 26, 2010
Agreed. Sometimes Christians need to be reminded that other people can be wrong. Just because others criticize the church all the time, does not necessarily mean that the critical are correct. Recognizing faults as part of “building each other up” is a good thing. But if no one is built up, it’s a negative.
July 12, 2010
Your statement:
“Neither a title, a degree, nor desire makes someone a leader. Being a leader is based upon three elements: a calling from God, character that honors God, and the competencies that enable the person to effectively pursue the vision God entrusts to them.”
???
That means that none in authority in the world are valid leaders unless they are righteous-living Christians?
Be careful….
July 12, 2010
A couple points on Atheism.
I have been debating Atheists at length on various issues over the past few years. There is a present and growing zealousness and fanatical evangelism in Atheism that is evil and anti-Christ in spirit. They are not your friend nor are they going to be converted to faith in Jesus Christ unless they are knocked off their horse and blinded and spoken to out of a cloud by God on the road to wherever and then healed by a mature beliver who can clearly hear the voice of God. The Atheists are from all the myriad (22,000) divisions of Christianity and know the Bible backwards and forwards probably better than you and I. They were raised in Christian homes dragged to Christian church and brutalized or abused in both environments. They have devoted their life to unconverting the converted, and adding to the roles of the unbelieving. They will split hairs on minor points for months with you wasting your time. Don’t bother unless called to it by God.
The biggest hinderence to effectively sharing the Gospel is the smell of self righteousness that permeates the air around western Christianity. This is the crux of what motivates Atheists and turns off most unbelievers to christianity. You are the righteousness of God IN CHRIST JESUS. Not in of yourself.
Yes when one truly repents of their sin and expresses faith in all that Jesus is, did, and doing they receive a new nature, (that is already but not yet). Repentence is a lifestyle and daily walk and ongoing operation of the Holy Spirit in us all. We haven’t arrived, contrary to popular belief!
The question of “What fuels your fire against the clergy?”
The model of the modern “clergy” is no where to be found in the New Testament.
We (Western Christianity) are doing the wrong thing, with the wrong person, in the wrong place, for the wrong reasons, at the wrong time, in the wrong way.
True to form of Western Democratic Capitalism we go find a specialist schooled expert “minister,reverend, pastor, preacher, preist,” to do the religion for us.
Then we put up a special building to go do the religion in.
Then we have a special day to go do the religion for a couple of hours, just get us out well before noon so we can beat all those other christian sects to the restuarant.
Then we sit dumb mutes as a written in stone Liturgy is followed in exacting order no deviations allowed.
Then we listen to specially trained musicians and special singers for our listening enjoyment.
Stand up sit down pray kneel stand up sit down pray kneel.
The sermon is delivered, but by Tuesday nobody could remember anything of signifigance in it.
Then the plate is passed to collect money to pay for all of this while numerous people in the crowd are struggling to put food on the table or have enough gas to even drive there, but no body is close enough to anybody to really know that.
And you can not find that anywhere in the NT.
The above actually hinders what is supposed to happen in a community of believers from happening. If you try to operate in your gifting and calling truly motivated by the Holy Spirit, that organization will grind you up and spit you out because the two are not compatible.
That is why Atheists are so actively working against christianity because they were damaged by it and have a hatred for it.
If you come to the lost world from that organization of man, they can’t hear you!
July 26, 2010
I’ve found it quite instructive to meet the siblings of evangelical atheists that claim to be formerly church going. Many of the sibs are church going, many find it a stretch to find whatever the sib experienced in their church, and most cannot figure out what happened to their sib.
An interesting note from the sibs is that many of the evangelical atheists adopted the views of an adult in authority, like a teacher or uncle, when in junior high.
A study needs to be done. The atheists I know are obviously not a random sample. I tell them that they are “casting their pearls before swine” because I’m committed to faith. Then I’m freed to engage the many who want to actually engage with others. But if course that leaves them to find someone who can be obligated and who will not look into whether the atheists’ claims are true. I’m still struggling with what is the best path.
August 16, 2010
My experience with Atheism is quite different. I am debating a higly zealous evangelizing informed organized effective Atheism. Much more organized and zealous than Christianity is in effectively communicating the Gospel of Jesus Christ. They are making inroads into the marginal western professing christian and young christian going off to the centers of world higher education system. Most professors are zealots in confronting christianity with neo-Darwinism, macro-evolution, humanism and naturalism, and outright zealous Atheism. The christian Church is loosing this battle. What greases the wheels so to speak is Darwinism evolution, which is even touted now within Catholic church and the Protestant church. I do not understand why the Christian Church is not supporting and funding top notch ID research? But the real issue is that Christianity is doing a terrible job of effectively discipling and teaching Christians the faith, how to articulate it and how to live it before men in community. The Athiest dominated Modern Scientific Community is robbing the faith of too many marginal professing christians going off to college and churning out educated heathens. The results are being seen in unprincipled men and woman in all areas of endeaver, without strong moral character. The immorality of our culture is in direct proportion to the elevation of Naturalism/Humanism based secular education over a well informed education and equiped faith in the Person of Jesus Christ.
July 12, 2010
I have debated the Atheists for months on end on this immorality issue. But even more interesting is “Homosexual Christians” using this data to justify themselves. The issue of active practicing homosexuals being christians and members in good standing of a church is an agenda being pushed by the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, liberation front. They argue citing the christian marriage divorce rate data that if a christian divorced and remarried can be a member of the Christian Church, why not them? Because they reason that if a man or woman divorces for reasons other than adultery, that they commit adultery and are living in adultery with their new partner, and the church winks at that. They in addition argue that because of the high rate of divorce amongst christian couples which may exceed non-christians that those old ideas in the Bible are no longer valid for modern society. They also argue that they were gay from the earliest memories that they have as very young children in having sexual attraction to the same gender as they, therefore being born that way and made that way by God they feel his blessing on it.
So if Christian married couples are living in adultery and members in good standing with the church, why can’t they as loving homosexuals be members in good standing in the church?
They reason they love Jesus and believe in him just like divorced hetrosexuals do in a new marriage who are living in adultery.
I have debated this issue at length with the gay community. What are your feelings.
July 26, 2010
My experience is that the percentage of divorces among Christians where adultery is not a factor is very, very low. Our culture encourages us to ascribe the “fault” for adultery to both parties in a marriage, no matter who is the adulterer. As a result, whether or not adultery is an issue is often not publicly known. I’ve known several divorces where one spouse was unaware of the adultery until years after the marriage breakup, although everyone at work knew.
One wrong does not justify another wrong. No matter what a person’s opinions on whether someone else’s marriage does or does not qualify, nothing justifies ignoring the very unambiguous Biblical instruction about homosexuality not being part of Christian communities.
August 16, 2010
This does not go to the heart of the issue. If there was only one known divorced individual for reasons other than adultery, remarried, and accepted with the local congregation with open arms, it does illustrate the point of prejudice towards homosexuals within Christianity and not against divorce within Christianity. Divorce is a huge problem in Christianity and allowed within the community of believers, homosexuality is not a huge problem but they are shunned from the community of believers.
Do you see this as a double standard?
August 16, 2010
I want to say that I am not a homosexual nor do I agree with homosexual life. I am wrestling with what I perceive to be a double standard with certian sins within Christianity. Some are winked at, others not.
Homosexuality seems to be one that is singled out as particularly nasty, but Adultery, Swindling, Greed, Self Righteousness, Judgemental, Unforgiveness, are not so much so.
July 12, 2010
Half truths readily lead to misunderstanding.
For example ‘ Christians arent perfect.. just forgiven’
Thats a half truth.
For while we arent perfect we do have the indwelling Holy Spirit who will lead us into Truth..who seeks to grow us in Christlikeness.
That doesnt give us permission to claim moral superiority.
For we follow One who leads with a Servant heart snd calls us to follow in service with servant hearts
July 14, 2010
John,
I appreciate your guard targeting “perfection”
Three themes are very lacking in modern churches:
Victory
Variety
Activity
A major offensive by Satan through seminaries and pulpits has been to delete/gut the goal of the victory/overcoming theme by Jesus/bible.
Once a person concludes that there is no overcoming possible, and that the blood of JESUS covers everything, then the person can just flounder around waiting for heaven. Evidently SIN is to be tolerated as just part of the human status quo.
How many preachers really believe or teach that JESUS came to save people FROM their sins and not IN their sins?
For decades I have hardly heard any sermons that use the perfect, holy, victory, overcoming, faultless goals.
This is why I mention so often that the clergy are more dangerous than jihad terrorists.
The reason: the words- gospel , grace and salvation have been corrupted.