Comments on: Does Ted Haggard Possess Moral Authority? http://www.georgebarna.com/2010/05/does-ted-haggard-possess-moral-authority/ Facilitating A Spiritual And Moral Revolution Mon, 06 Feb 2012 16:46:35 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: CESMM http://www.georgebarna.com/2010/05/does-ted-haggard-possess-moral-authority/comment-page-1/#comment-6278 CESMM Mon, 20 Jun 2011 23:44:55 +0000 http://www.georgebarna.com/?p=441#comment-6278 This whole issue and and conversation makes me think of this passage from Jesus. It doesn't matter what kind of "rehab or restoration process" a man goes through, it matters in the end if he is known by God. These verses were meant by Jesus to be a clear warning to us and we should take them as such: Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. This whole issue and and conversation makes me think of this passage from Jesus. It doesn’t matter what kind of “rehab or restoration process” a man goes through, it matters in the end if he is known by God. These verses were meant by Jesus to be a clear warning to us and we should take them as such:
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

]]> By: Michael O. http://www.georgebarna.com/2010/05/does-ted-haggard-possess-moral-authority/comment-page-1/#comment-2098 Michael O. Mon, 06 Sep 2010 15:27:20 +0000 http://www.georgebarna.com/?p=441#comment-2098 The question at hand is: "Does Ted Haggard Possess Moral Authority?" In reading back through the posts I am not sure anyone has really hit on the question accurately. He didn't, he doesn't, nor will he. He is not supposed to. Nor can he. Nor can any so-called leader. Moral authority is Jesus Christ's. Leaders are to exhibit serve, humility, upright character, and morals. I suppose a group of people who are close to an individual and have observed his life for a long time by close fellowship may gain a perception that one has a certian moral authority because they continually consistantly exhibit upright righteous moral integrity thereby having a sense of moral authority. IMO I think it is more of an improper understanding of authority and leadership itself. All of us are imperfect sinners saved by grace. But the Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Teacher, Elder/Shepherd, Deacon, are held to a higher standard. In Haggards instance he forfited the trust given to him, not as a brother, but within the role of the modern "pastor", in which he served. IMO the role in which he served is unscriptural in the first place which is another thread topic. Our thinking is so influenced by mans tradition of leadership as office or position that it causes massive confusion. The modern model of "pastor" is not in the Bible, not even close. It is so far off that it is causing great confusion. Elder/Shepherds are so because they eld. They are an Elder because the are an Elder as matter of function because that is what they are it just comes out of their life and the community recognizes, hey, that guy elds because he is. It is not because somebody or somebodies decided to make some guy elder. God made the guy an Elder, everybody just comes into agreement with it over time. At that time of recognizing it comes the laying on of hands and declaration. The difference is that God elevates, not man. Then, there is a plurality of said Elder/Shepherds. Why? They eld. This plurality of Elders, Eld, not springing from office or official position, but by function eminating from who they are as God made them and matured them in the fire of trial, temptation, hardship, testing, as a product of living the Gospel. Much of it (trial) coming from professing christians. The word "pastor" only shows up once in the NT. The rest of the time it is translated into English as Elder/Shepherd and is always used as a plurality as opposed to singular. Back to Ted Haggard. Ted needs to sit down in a group of christians and "unto one another" as it says in the NT, for a long period of time and continue to sell insurance and allow the Holy Spirit to grow him into the next aspect of his experience with God. The modern model of "pastor" isn't one of them IMO. That role places impossible demands on an individual that no one person was designed by God to be able to do. No one can live up to that impossible position of modern "pastor." No one is supposed to. So in answer to the original question, nobody possess's moral authority to be able to fill the role of modern "pastor." It is unscriptural in the first place and an impossible position to put someone in in the second place. The question at hand is: “Does Ted Haggard Possess Moral Authority?”
In reading back through the posts I am not sure anyone has really hit on the question accurately.
He didn’t, he doesn’t, nor will he.
He is not supposed to. Nor can he. Nor can any so-called leader.
Moral authority is Jesus Christ’s.
Leaders are to exhibit serve, humility, upright character, and morals. I suppose a group of people who are close to an individual and have observed his life for a long time by close fellowship may gain a perception that one has a certian moral authority because they continually consistantly exhibit upright righteous moral integrity thereby having a sense of moral authority.
IMO I think it is more of an improper understanding of authority and leadership itself. All of us are imperfect sinners saved by grace. But the Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Teacher, Elder/Shepherd, Deacon, are held to a higher standard. In Haggards instance he forfited the trust given to him, not as a brother, but within the role of the modern “pastor”, in which he served. IMO the role in which he served is unscriptural in the first place which is another thread topic.
Our thinking is so influenced by mans tradition of leadership as office or position that it causes massive confusion. The modern model of “pastor” is not in the Bible, not even close. It is so far off that it is causing great confusion. Elder/Shepherds are so because they eld. They are an Elder because the are an Elder as matter of function because that is what they are it just comes out of their life and the community recognizes, hey, that guy elds because he is. It is not because somebody or somebodies decided to make some guy elder. God made the guy an Elder, everybody just comes into agreement with it over time. At that time of recognizing it comes the laying on of hands and declaration. The difference is that God elevates, not man. Then, there is a plurality of said Elder/Shepherds. Why? They eld. This plurality of Elders, Eld, not springing from office or official position, but by function eminating from who they are as God made them and matured them in the fire of trial, temptation, hardship, testing, as a product of living the Gospel. Much of it (trial) coming from professing christians.
The word “pastor” only shows up once in the NT. The rest of the time it is translated into English as Elder/Shepherd and is always used as a plurality as opposed to singular.
Back to Ted Haggard.
Ted needs to sit down in a group of christians and “unto one another” as it says in the NT, for a long period of time and continue to sell insurance and allow the Holy Spirit to grow him into the next aspect of his experience with God. The modern model of “pastor” isn’t one of them IMO. That role places impossible demands on an individual that no one person was designed by God to be able to do. No one can live up to that impossible position of modern “pastor.” No one is supposed to.
So in answer to the original question, nobody possess’s moral authority to be able to fill the role of modern “pastor.” It is unscriptural in the first place and an impossible position to put someone in in the second place.

]]> By: T. Heger http://www.georgebarna.com/2010/05/does-ted-haggard-possess-moral-authority/comment-page-1/#comment-2093 T. Heger Mon, 06 Sep 2010 01:43:07 +0000 http://www.georgebarna.com/?p=441#comment-2093 I suggest we question how Christianity is perceived today. I believe we may have to first ask what age group we are addressing. College students for instance, will have a very different view point on average than the “Baby Boomers” (born between ‘46 & ‘64) would. I conducted a mini-interview with friends and family over the weekend and I’ve found that the young people I know generally really do have a higher view point of homosexuals than they do evangelicals! We speak of the intolerance behind the “tolerance” message, and that is certainly an important point to make; however, I have been around long enough know that we hold more of the responsibility for American’s perception of Christians than we dare to admit. I personally served under Ted Haggard’s ministry for two years, for instance, and I witnessed his abuse of power long after his “You Can’t Hide a Secret” sermon. Presently, you can write endless blogs about whether or not Mr. Haggard should be restored to his original ministry position. Do we show the world how “forgiving” we are or do we heed the words of 1Timothy 3:2-10, requiring leaders to above reproach? Of course, we can extend forgiveness to the ex-rapist without asking him to teach Sunday school. When I speak to young people, I find that we have to hold up a higher standard of holiness to actually deal with the problem. The humanistic view is everywhere – that man is basically good and has the potential to create a world of peace and justice. The Lord gave us the answer on how to deal with our present culture in this scripture: "For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?"(Peter 4:17). I suggest we question how Christianity is perceived today. I believe we may have to first ask what age group we are addressing. College students for instance, will have a very different view point on average than the “Baby Boomers” (born between ‘46 & ‘64) would. I conducted a mini-interview with friends and family over the weekend and I’ve found that the young people I know generally really do have a higher view point of homosexuals than they do evangelicals!

We speak of the intolerance behind the “tolerance” message, and that is certainly an important point to make; however, I have been around long enough know that we hold more of the responsibility for American’s perception of Christians than we dare to admit. I personally served under Ted Haggard’s ministry for two years, for instance, and I witnessed his abuse of power long after his “You Can’t Hide a Secret” sermon. Presently, you can write endless blogs about whether or not Mr. Haggard should be restored to his original ministry position. Do we show the world how “forgiving” we are or do we heed the words of 1Timothy 3:2-10, requiring leaders to above reproach? Of course, we can extend forgiveness to the ex-rapist without asking him to teach Sunday school.

When I speak to young people, I find that we have to hold up a higher standard of holiness to actually deal with the problem. The humanistic view is everywhere – that man is basically good and has the potential to create a world of peace and justice. The Lord gave us the answer on how to deal with our present culture in this scripture: “For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?”(Peter 4:17).

]]> By: Mike Olson http://www.georgebarna.com/2010/05/does-ted-haggard-possess-moral-authority/comment-page-1/#comment-1811 Mike Olson Mon, 16 Aug 2010 17:11:56 +0000 http://www.georgebarna.com/?p=441#comment-1811 IMHO. I believe Ted Haggard is the poster child for what is unscriptural and wrong with the modern model of "Pastor", as an office or position. A man was never intended by the Lord Jesus Christ to be in "Office" as was Ted Haggard. Local Church wise, or National position of "head" of the Evangelical heirarchy wise. My Bible reads and sets precedence for and articulates within the whole of the N.T. a "plurality" of Elder/Shepherds in the local community of believers not in an official office, but functioning within the local body and recognized by the whole local body of believers as mature trusted bretern by long time observation and familiarity with the fruits and gifts in their lives humbly building up the saints. The modern model of "Pastor" is nowhere within the N.T. A man can not fill that role because it is intended for and by Jesus Christ Himself by the Holy Spirit in the local setting and worldwide setting. The modern model of "Pastor" actually hinders the free participation and function of the every believer in the believers gathering as articulated by Paul in 1 Corin. 14:26, and elsewhere. One person should not have that much power, attention, importance, position, or deference, because when they do sin, it has devastating consequence. The differing types of people given to the body of believers (Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Teacher, Elder/Shepherd) are for the "equipping of the Saints for the work of the ministry" not the one guy to do the work of the ministry. The 70x7 forgiving is for individual believers against individual believers. How does one apply that to a prominant nationally recognized office holder unScriptually placed figure? Non-local or Itinerant workers such as Paul and his fellow workers didn't head national heirarchial structures of organization, nor did they run local community(s) of believers. That said. It is a moot point, Ted Haggard coming in and being the go to guy as before. He shouldn't have been in the first. He surely shouldn't be in the second! He needs to settle in as an equal to a group of believers just like the rest of us and function and participate in his God given abilities whether they be gifts of fruits. In that context he or any of us can't do great damage, but great good. It is all about humility and submitting yourselfs one to another and encouraging and building each other up. Not being Johnny Rockstar Sammy Superchristian again and going off the deep end. IMHO. I believe Ted Haggard is the poster child for what is unscriptural and wrong with the modern model of “Pastor”, as an office or position. A man was never intended by the Lord Jesus Christ to be in “Office” as was Ted Haggard. Local Church wise, or National position of “head” of the Evangelical heirarchy wise.
My Bible reads and sets precedence for and articulates within the whole of the N.T. a “plurality” of Elder/Shepherds in the local community of believers not in an official office, but functioning within the local body and recognized by the whole local body of believers as mature trusted bretern by long time observation and familiarity with the fruits and gifts in their lives humbly building up the saints.
The modern model of “Pastor” is nowhere within the N.T. A man can not fill that role because it is intended for and by Jesus Christ Himself by the Holy Spirit in the local setting and worldwide setting. The modern model of “Pastor” actually hinders the free participation and function of the every believer in the believers gathering as articulated by Paul in 1 Corin. 14:26, and elsewhere. One person should not have that much power, attention, importance, position, or deference, because when they do sin, it has devastating consequence. The differing types of people given to the body of believers (Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Teacher, Elder/Shepherd) are for the “equipping of the Saints for the work of the ministry” not the one guy to do the work of the ministry. The 70×7 forgiving is for individual believers against individual believers. How does one apply that to a prominant nationally recognized office holder unScriptually placed figure? Non-local or Itinerant workers such as Paul and his fellow workers didn’t head national heirarchial structures of organization, nor did they run local community(s) of believers.
That said.
It is a moot point, Ted Haggard coming in and being the go to guy as before. He shouldn’t have been in the first. He surely shouldn’t be in the second!
He needs to settle in as an equal to a group of believers just like the rest of us and function and participate in his God given abilities whether they be gifts of fruits. In that context he or any of us can’t do great damage, but great good. It is all about humility and submitting yourselfs one to another and encouraging and building each other up. Not being Johnny Rockstar Sammy Superchristian again and going off the deep end.

]]> By: Centurion2010 http://www.georgebarna.com/2010/05/does-ted-haggard-possess-moral-authority/comment-page-1/#comment-1493 Centurion2010 Wed, 04 Aug 2010 00:27:31 +0000 http://www.georgebarna.com/?p=441#comment-1493 I have a lot of kind thoughts about what Ted Haggard has done in regard to true repentance. I too don't have an answer, because I believe in redemption. On the other hand, look at the standards the Bible requires of overseers and deacons as set forth in 1 Timothy 3. Does Ted Haggard have a long enough track record in his walk of redemption to match those standards, let alone be a pastor standing in leadership above even overseers and deacons? I do not sit in condemnation of Ted Haggard because I do not feel that I measure up to the standards of 1 Timothy 3 in that my son has strayed from the faith and during the period that he was under my covering. 1 Timothy 3:12. Instead of being the direct spiritual authority in my household, I made the mistake of abrogating that responsibility to the youth pastors of our church. But the Bible is the story of action and consequence, of cause and effect. People today expect instant results and instant forgiveness. The take away from 1 Timothy 3 (among several in this passage) is that we need to humble ourselves far longer than we may desire before we may be worthy again of anointing --- and that if you want to be a leader, as my father always told me, you must first show that you are a faithful follower. That takes time, perhaps more than all of us impatient sinners, in seeking absolution, are comfortable enduring. But Christian obedience is not about comfort. I have a lot of kind thoughts about what Ted Haggard has done in regard to true repentance. I too don’t have an answer, because I believe in redemption. On the other hand, look at the standards the Bible requires of overseers and deacons as set forth in 1 Timothy 3. Does Ted Haggard have a long enough track record in his walk of redemption to match those standards, let alone be a pastor standing in leadership above even overseers and deacons? I do not sit in condemnation of Ted Haggard because I do not feel that I measure up to the standards of 1 Timothy 3 in that my son has strayed from the faith and during the period that he was under my covering. 1 Timothy 3:12. Instead of being the direct spiritual authority in my household, I made the mistake of abrogating that responsibility to the youth pastors of our church. But the Bible is the story of action and consequence, of cause and effect. People today expect instant results and instant forgiveness. The take away from 1 Timothy 3 (among several in this passage) is that we need to humble ourselves far longer than we may desire before we may be worthy again of anointing — and that if you want to be a leader, as my father always told me, you must first show that you are a faithful follower. That takes time, perhaps more than all of us impatient sinners, in seeking absolution, are comfortable enduring. But Christian obedience is not about comfort.

]]> By: Maureen http://www.georgebarna.com/2010/05/does-ted-haggard-possess-moral-authority/comment-page-1/#comment-1332 Maureen Mon, 26 Jul 2010 15:53:49 +0000 http://www.georgebarna.com/?p=441#comment-1332 Obedience to the Living word, God spoke it the Holy Spirit wrote through man, we are to live it. This is my first thought :) Obedience to the Living word, God spoke it the Holy Spirit wrote through man, we are to live it.

This is my first thought :)

]]> By: B Crump http://www.georgebarna.com/2010/05/does-ted-haggard-possess-moral-authority/comment-page-1/#comment-1227 B Crump Fri, 09 Jul 2010 22:09:36 +0000 http://www.georgebarna.com/?p=441#comment-1227 Just to set the record straight...Brooke is one of my closest friends. She is an early thirty year old happily married mother of 5 adopted children. No one gets to tell this woman what it means to love and forgive. She lives it more everyday than anyone else I know. Mercy and encouragement are her mantra. Theology be damned. Sorry to have outted you...but your tenacity deserved explanation. Just to set the record straight…Brooke is one of my closest friends. She is an early thirty year old happily married mother of 5 adopted children. No one gets to tell this woman what it means to love and forgive. She lives it more everyday than anyone else I know. Mercy and encouragement are her mantra.

Theology be damned.

Sorry to have outted you…but your tenacity deserved explanation.

]]> By: Brooke Carter http://www.georgebarna.com/2010/05/does-ted-haggard-possess-moral-authority/comment-page-1/#comment-1226 Brooke Carter Fri, 09 Jul 2010 14:32:08 +0000 http://www.georgebarna.com/?p=441#comment-1226 Well said. Well said.

]]> By: carpadiem http://www.georgebarna.com/2010/05/does-ted-haggard-possess-moral-authority/comment-page-1/#comment-1208 carpadiem Mon, 05 Jul 2010 05:55:12 +0000 http://www.georgebarna.com/?p=441#comment-1208 God has a history of using the least likely...perhaps T Haggard is yet another least likely. Gods grace is so beyond our understanding this side of eternity. Will T Haggard "ministry" really flourish without Gods approval?? Perhaps we should prayerfully leave the matter in Gods hands. God has a history of using the least likely…perhaps T Haggard is yet another least likely. Gods grace is so beyond our understanding this side of eternity. Will T Haggard “ministry” really flourish without Gods approval?? Perhaps we should prayerfully leave the matter in Gods hands.

]]> By: R.V. Windfield http://www.georgebarna.com/2010/05/does-ted-haggard-possess-moral-authority/comment-page-1/#comment-1095 R.V. Windfield Fri, 02 Jul 2010 17:31:07 +0000 http://www.georgebarna.com/?p=441#comment-1095 Even though the mind or flesh is stubborn and not moved and locked in lust and ignorance there is nothing that we can’t overcome, if we have the desire. The excuse that it is impossible to change ingrained or inherited passions, lusts, and habits is scripturaly imbalanced in light of 1 Corinthians 10:13. 1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. (KJV) This scripture is what makes the issues we face today in church corruption, sexual scandal and avarice such a sad commentary. There was no temptation so great that the individuals involved couldn’t walk away from. The curse causeless shall not come, {Proverbs. 26.2). Bad things do not happen for no reason. But the mind has not been renewed and the individuals can’t see into the Kingdom. They got to the door [Jesus] and never opened the door and entered into the Kingdom. Jesus is “The Way” into the Kingdom of God. If we stop with the salvation of Jesus we don’t move into the Kingdom. Even though the mind or flesh is stubborn and not moved and locked in lust and ignorance there is nothing that we can’t overcome, if we have the desire. The excuse that it is impossible to change ingrained or inherited passions, lusts, and habits is scripturaly imbalanced in light of 1 Corinthians 10:13.

1 Corinthians 10:13
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. (KJV)

This scripture is what makes the issues we face today in church corruption, sexual scandal and avarice such a sad commentary. There was no temptation so great that the individuals involved couldn’t walk away from. The curse causeless shall not come, {Proverbs. 26.2). Bad things do not happen for no reason. But the mind has not been renewed and the individuals can’t see into the Kingdom. They got to the door [Jesus] and never opened the door and entered into the Kingdom. Jesus is “The Way” into the Kingdom of God. If we stop with the salvation of Jesus we don’t move into the Kingdom.

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