Ted Haggard, former senior pastor of a large church in Colorado and past president of the National Association of Evangelicals, is back on the scene. After having been run out of the church world for his admitted homosexual liaisons and drug abuse, he has stayed under the radar for a couple of years while working with his wife, children, and various pastors and believers to reclaim his life. He recently returned to Colorado and asked some people to join him in his home for prayer. Hundreds turned up. Now there is talk of him starting a church in the same area where he was formerly a pastor. The widespread upset is about whether Mr. Haggard has the moral authority to lead a church.
What do you make of this “moral authority” argument? It’s a sticky discussion because we are all immoral to one degree or another: we all sin and are therefore immoral (i.e., engaging in bad or illicit behavior, based on accepted standards). At what point does one’s sins, especially if they have been repented for and the sinner has taken steps to address and transform his behavioral patterns, get forgiven? Does forgiveness empower the sinner to re-enter his former bailiwick?
I’ve read a bunch of the books on these matters, but still find that it is not as black and white as some people apparently believe. And I’ve encountered the tough questions about who is justified in returning to their past livelihood. For instance, I would not want a pedophile to return to teaching in an elementary school classroom, even if they are “reformed.” I would not want a drug addict returning to his job as a pharmacist.
But I’m not as clear-cut in my thinking regarding how to respond to a humble, repentant and “rehabilitated” servant of God who wishes to return to share what he has learned on the most difficult part of his journey. After all, nobody is forced to listen to that person’s teaching, or to accept his leadership. When the person is a gifted servant who seems to honestly seek a chance to serve God again by using those gifts, and is willing to serve under the authority of moral people, do we have grounds for refusing him the opportunity?
Personally, I am moved by the degree of forgiveness Ted’s wife, Gayle, has shown toward him. I am affected by the willingness of his children to stand by him. I am struck by the scriptures challenge me to forgive others, seventy times seven, and to worry more about the log in my own eye than the specks of dust in the eyes of others. Ultimately, I want to be wise and discerning, but to remember that I am rarely qualified to throw the first stone at another sinner.
May 21, 2010
Pastors and such are in a different category according to Paul, who in 1 Ti. 3:2-10 three times stipulates the requirement that they must be “beyond reproach”. 1 Ti. 3:7 is particularly specific, “And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.” I have no doubt that ANY backslidden believer can be restored to fellowship; I have every biblical doubt that such can be restored to ministry. Is there anything in 1 Ti. 3:7 which does not apply to Ted Haggard?
May 27, 2010
Excellent exegeis of this teaching in Titus. Beyond reproach applies to christian leaders,notwithstanding the reproach that Jesus endured. Jesus had different ministry objectives than modern man. Unfortunately we are not the embodiment of truth..He is Truth
May 21, 2010
“We have to decide what the church is. If the church is the fellowship of the righteous, then we need to throw unrighteous people out, which means no one can come in (not even the staff). Or if the church is the fellowship of the gratefully redeemed, then we’re all growing into His righteousness.”
– Ted Haggard, Tulsa World (Sept. 26, 2009)
Be careful not to make such distinctions between the clergy and the laity. That’s a slippery slope. We are all called to carry a cross and be representatives of Christ our Redeemer. I’d attend a service led by Ted Haggard anyday if only to experience the kind of humility and submissive nature coming from the pulpit that should be mandated by everyone stepping up on the platform.
All that aside, I’ve got to say that as Christians we’re supposed to “love a comeback” and “root for the underdog”. Drop the ball and you get benched indefinitely…what kind of message does that send to the unbeliever?
July 26, 2010
Obedience to the Living word, God spoke it the Holy Spirit wrote through man, we are to live it.
This is my first thought
May 22, 2010
What are the dangers of Mr. Haggard’s restoration? That people will be misled about his character? Hardly likely in such a public situation. That he will condone his sin or excuse it in some way? Possible but his public repentance is well documented. That we erode Scriptural standards for leadership? For many, this is the central issue. In response, I suggest that the Holy Spirit is given for just such things, to make a case by case determination of what should be done. As to moral authority…well… all authority is derived, none intrinsic to the believer. If we believe in a communicating God, the Spirit must be our guide in the application of standards and thus also in the conveyance of authority. After all, it is His church.
May 22, 2010
Can I just say a Thank You to Mr. Loyd. I get that most don’t know what to do with “case by case determination”. I’m certainly not going to be the one to explain to someone how the “communicating God” thing works, but I know it’s real just as I know that romantic love is real even though I cannot explain the mechanics of romantic love. I’ve been asking loads of questions lately concerning this topic so let me ask a couple here.
Is it possible that we have allowed “church” (i.e. theology, doctrine, tradition, etc.) to take the place of the communication, discernment and guidance of God’s Holy Spirit? I don’t even know if this question makes sense as I’m still processing what it’s impact could be to our modern church culture.
Is it possible the reason that current modes of organized Christianity are coming under such intense criticism is because the generic message of Faith that we’ve packaged lacks subjectivity? And how can a church or denomination or sect administer to the specific needs of individuals with a generic message?
It would seem that if you can create a generic Christian, then you can utilize a generic message. If you encourage diversity and individuality, then you give up the presentation of a cohesive, coherent message. So it would seem that organized religious entities run a risk either way. Take a stand for Biblical inerrancy and you might have to deal with someone throwing a dinosaur bone at you. Toss out all Christian dogma and you risk throwing out objective Truths in the process.
June 19, 2010
BCrump, well put each time! OKay so here it is My 2cents worth, better late then never right! As for the “church of today” the church of today can not handle the truth. The church of today wants only to have it’s ears itched! Now for those who want true fellowship with God that is where truth must be present. That is the Bible, and when it comes to judgement, lets leave that to God, if there are people who want to listen to a man speek the truth, so be it, no one is forcing any person to sit under anyone’ authority people choose who they listen to and to what they listen to. Even Jim Jones had a fallowing clear to the end! Let’s step back and ask what is the message he will be preaching on the most and is it truth?
May 22, 2010
In my journey from atheism to Christian, I can honestly say I have encountered some serious rapids on my journey. It’s likely that my file in God’s filing cabinet looks less like a folder than it does a five inch binder. This is relevant to my viewpoints of the modern-day church and organized religion. Each one speaks of forgiveness through Christ, but each one also casts judgment on those that are seeking answers.
What D. Isom up there is getting at is that Ted Haggard should most definitely NOT be allowed back into ministry. His opinion on this is obviously firm, and it cites References. But what hope does that offer someone like me? Ted Haggard is real to me. He is someone that I consider a phoenix. He is someone that has clawed his way back into the Light. He is someone that people like me can identify with and LISTEN TO. He gets it.
I turned my back on the church long ago, like many of my peers. It is irrelevant to me. Ted Haggard’s message might be relevant to me because I can read his sin resume and know that he isn’t like the rest of these backbiting yahoos, raised in the church, never strayed from their path, their eyes tightly shut (you know, the generic Christians).
May 22, 2010
Bravo!!!
May 22, 2010
Well said!!!
May 22, 2010
I have sat under a leader who had been morally compromised. I have also co-labored with another.
One of these men fell back into the same immortality. The difference between the two men were the restoration and accountability process. One man went through a long supervised restoration, while the other said my wife has forgiven me, God has forgiven me, we have all sinned lets move on. One, though he says is totally delivered, maintains a high level of public accountability, the other operates with business as usual. Guess which one has had morality issues?
Yes, the one with no real restoration or accountability. If someones goes through a restoration process, then I believe they have been restored, including a moral authority.
The real question we need to ask, has there proper restoration and is there proper accountability going forward. The answer to these should answer all other questions that surround moral failure.
May 22, 2010
why can’t he be satisfied being a regular Christian without trying to lead a church? isn’t there enough to do as regular Christian?
May 22, 2010
May be because the calling to ministry is a calling and not a job! May be because he is more qualified now than ever before to speak from an understanding of God’s grace and mercy! May be because Ted’s sin didn’t suddenly negate the wisdom and knowledge God has invested in Him! After all, it is the same Bible that reminds us that the gifts and callings of God are without repentance. Consider that.
May 22, 2010
There is only one question left in my mind “Was the blood that Jesus shed on the cross enough?” YES! There is still “power in the blood” and if Jesus can forgive and restore than why in the world can’t the church?
The blood of Jesus is enough to take care of Ted’s past. It’s not about where he’s been but where he’s going.
May 22, 2010
nicely said.
May 22, 2010
booyah! (in a grotesquely loud gutteral show of appreciation)
- no additives, no preservatives…the cross IS the answer.
May 22, 2010
The blood of Christ can restore Mr. Haggard. But we also have to rely on our instruction manual, the bible, to lead us. The scripture cited above tells us what a pastor MUST be. Also, I think it speaks volumes when the leaders at his former church say he is not fully restored and is not welcome in any leadership capacity there.
May 22, 2010
The “leaders” at his former church treated Mr. Haggard and his family extremely distastefully and should be subject to the same types of adjudication that they imparted on their former pastor. I wouldn’t step foot in that building to come in out of the rain.
Since when do we treat our pastors like ‘hired help’? If they stumble…cast them out and move on to the next guy/gal. If it was someone within the laity of said church we would expect the “leaders” to rally around that person/persons and fortify them with encouragement and support in preparation for the hard road ahead. Not with Mr. Haggard and others like him! I’d rather have someone punch me in the face and spit in my eye than be treated as shabbily and disgraceful as those “leaders” treated Ted Haggard.
Shame on them and shame on those that defend them!
I’m mad because these are the types of situations that give us all (Christians) a bad name and cause unbelievers to scoff at us. We’re like a bunch of apes sitting around picking fleas off one another while the rest of humanity comes by every once in a while to gaze at us through the bars. I am sick of living in a zoo!
May 22, 2010
Mr. Haggard received more support at that church than most pastors ever get. Not to mention he got the benefit of the doubt even after his lies were exposed. Then they rallied around him to counsel and help restore but he decides he’s cured. They gave him a severance package he didn’t deserve and asked him to leave the area. And you know what? Sometimes people do get cast out. It’s called church discipline and the bible tells the church that it is their role to do so.
It’s nice and good for us to want to be lovey dovey and let’s remember grace. Bit there is another side to grace and the Christian body has seemed to have forgotten about it.
I don’t think you will find too many people to say e shouldn’t be forgiven. But when he spent his entire career railing against the very thing he was doing. When he was holding himself up as the standard bearer for morality to the people in his congregation and the people of Colorado, when confronted he lies to the leaders of his church, in my opinion, he doesn’t get to be that leadership person again. He can still do great things in the name of Christ.
May 22, 2010
Well put…two sides to each coin and I certainly see your’s. I guess I just don’t value “church” much and the thought of a man/woman not being allowed to lead any longer, to me, is like telling someone they can’t drive a car anymore because they got a ticket.
And then again…who are we to say he has or hasn’t been healed? I’m rooting for healing and transformation. I also hate the idea that we’ve somehow created this hierarchy of “acceptable” sins and “unacceptable” sins. I know we say all sins are the same, but that’s really not the way we operate.
If God despises homosexuality, then He must despise homosexuals makes about as much sense as the presupposition that because God hates divorce, then He must hate the divorced. I say that if gays aren’t welcome in our churches then divorced folks aren’t either—I’m being facetious, of course.
Our presupposition (bad programming) tells us that if we engage in anything that God does not approve of then He will not approve of us.
Sorry, I think I might have strayed a bit from the topic. But, again, I do see your point.
May 22, 2010
No, I think it’s all relevant. Personally, I don’t think all sins are equal. In the eyes of God, a sin is a sin. But I think, as in this case, a pastor is held to a higher standard because he is called by God to lead His people. This is not to say that a pastor is better or more spiritual than a lay person.
If you or I had done the same thing Mr. Haggard had done, it would affect our immediate family and maybe some close friends. When Mr. Haggard was found out, it affected his family, his friends, and the entire community he was called to lead.
To take your car example. It would not be fair to stop someone from driving because they got a ticket. But that driver getting a ticket is the equivalent of me getting caught doing what Mr. Haggard did. A driver not being able to drive because he hit someone is the equivalent of what Mr. Haggard, himself did to his family and community.
Or another analogy: If someone steals something from your home, you can and may forgive that person. That doesn’t mean you’re going to let them have a key to your home or house sit for you while on vacation. If a policeman commits a crime, he is no longer allowed to be a policeman.
The church is not perfect and it never will be. But we are called to be a community of followers. We are also called to hold one another accountable. Those are my thoughts but I am human and fallible so I could be completely wrong.
May 23, 2010
Stimulating read, all youze guys. Thanks again, George, for prodding us.
King David comes to mind among others. Fallen and restored, now that is amazing Grace. Cultural context amplified world-wide by 24/7 and social media, especially of the “Christian” sort, can be a harsher restoration gauntlet than of our God he most offended. If on one hand I hesitate because of the cultish momentum of church personality worship that could follow him as before, I am gratified to suppose the public accountability enforced by private accountability mentors will undergird his message…not the ones he preaches, the one he now must live in the fishbowl Opinion? The critical issue of “above reproach” can be handled, maybe enhanced, by new humility and transparency. Honestly, I am eager, and perhaps will become prayerful, to see how (and if) that message plays out.
May 23, 2010
If I were an addict in search of a counselor, I would insist on seeing a counselor who is a recovering addict. How else would he/she be able to relate to my struggles? If someone told me, “You can quit because I read in a book that people can change,” it would not be nearly as relevant to me as someone saying, “You can quit. I know you can because I have been there and I did it. It will be hard, but I will be here to share my experience and help you.” In my mind, the situation with Ted Haggard is very similar.
As far as “moral authority” is concerned, I’m not sure that I believe that any person has moral authority over another person. None of us is perfect or sinless and none of us has been given biblical authority to judge another. Is it fair to judge bad behavior? Of course. But who among us has the moral authority to determine whether Ted Haggard has been restored? The truth is that none of us has that authority any more than someone else, even a pastor, has that authority over us. Jesus is my moral authority. If Ted Haggard loves Jesus and feels that He has forgiven and restored him, who am I to question that?
In the end, Ted Haggard’s ability or inability to lead a congregation will be determined by whether or not people are willing to follow him. If he started a church in my town, I would actually give church another try.
May 24, 2010
I believe Mr Haggard’s wife has written a book titled, WHY I STAYED. Might be an essential read in order to take this kind of a conversation from the opinion side of anonymous blogging to the actual human side of dealing appropriately with people’s lives.
If she can move forward, who are the rest of us to be chiming in. That marital covenant is far greater than any he had with a congregation.
May 24, 2010
Well said!
May 24, 2010
[An] elder is required to have a good reputation with non-Christians. Restoring the fallen elder’s reputation with the non-Christian world, however, may be particularly difficult, for such restoration, to a certain degree, is beyond his control and is subject to society’s discretion, which at times can be most unforgiving.
Two observations concerning a Christian leader’s reputation with the non-Christian world must be stressed. First, it is difficult to overemphasize the importance of this qualification. Not only do several textual factors especially highlight this qualification, but a theological reason also stresses its importance: the world judges the church and its Lord by an evaluation of the character and conduct of the church’s leader.
This poses the real possibility that the besmirched reputation of a leader will bring special reproach to the church and to the name of the Lord. In this regard Earle correctly observes, “When a leader in the church has a bad reputation in the community, it often brings irreparable damage to the local congregation and indeed to the entire cause of Christ.” In such a case Paul’s denunciation in Romans 2:24 would apply: “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.” Second, the moral seriousness of sexual immorality suggests that a reputation so tarnished will be difficult to rehabilitate. Scripture confirms this supposition and at several points suggests that a reputation tarnished by sexual immorality is almost impossible to rehabilitate. In fact the sexual offender may bear permanently the stigma of his offense.
Does God then forbid the restoration of fallen leaders? No. Does He leave open the possibility? Yes. Does that possibility look promising? Yes and no. If both the life and reputation of the fallen elder can be rehabilitated, his prospects for restoration are promising. However, rehabilitating his reputation, not to mention his life, will be particularly difficult, for squandering one’s reputation is “a snare of the devil” (1 Tim 3:7), and he does not yield up his prey easily.
— Can Fallen Leaders Be Restored to Leadership? Jay E. Smith Bibliotheca Sacra 151:604 (Oct 94) p. 480
May 24, 2010
This is the point where it becomes laughable to engage the topic any further, but here we go. Doing what it is we (as Christians) always do. We quantify and subjugate everything and everyone to the point that we look like fools. This…this discussion is why the outside world (unbelievers) mock us. This is not how reality operates. If Ted Haggard or anyone else wants to start up a “church” in the name of God and inspired by the Holy Spirit then let them have at it. If people want to attend said “church” and create a new sense of community among themselves then let them at it. And who among any of us or among any organizational entity has the actual authority to do a blessed thing about it. If any of us disapprove of such a “church” I suggest they not attend and keep their mouth shut.
If a grown man falls and is able to get back up again, take responsibility for his actions, and declare that he has found a new lease on life, faith, and hope then I’m gonna stand by that man…not because theology tells me to…not because someone is able to construct an eloquent argument on his behalf…but for one reason only…I Am My Brothers Keeper!
You can keep all the rest of the arguments going and debate about what’s right vs. wrong…is this man with us or with them…all along I’m gonna do whatever I can to tend his wounds because we’re in a battle, folks. This battle is real and this battle has casualties. And I promise you that the only ones out here that are wearing clean uniforms are the ones that are back at the command post giving orders over the radio.
I fully understand that this is a losing argument. No one on the other side will ever listen to my heart on these matters because I fear that they’ve stopped listening to their own hearts. I believe that Jesus was a life coach…not a seminary professor. What Jesus cares about is our heart. He’s looking at our heart. He sees the core of who we are and He loves it passionately!
May 24, 2010
In response to PewPotato, I think it is important to clarify that the secular world judges our Lord and His Church not only by the conduct of its leaders, but by the conduct of ALL people claiming to be His followers. How many people who have committed adultery or who are homosexual or who have abused drugs are going to look at the way Ted Haggard has been cast out and think to themselves that there is a place for them in church? Probably not very many. How many people feel scorned by the Lord because of how they are received by Christians? Probably many. Does embracing Ted Haggard send the message to non-Christians that Christians embrace immorality? I don’t believe that it does. I think it sends the message that there is a place in church for every person regardless of his past because Jesus, and we as His followers, are more concerned about his future. And isn’t that the message that we really need to be sending?
May 24, 2010
I know Ted and Gayle and have met a couple of his children. Ted is exactly the kind of story we need in the church. His restoration is a triumph for the Gospel. Gayle challenged us all to watch her when she resigned from New Life with her husband. We have watched and she has shown us. Now it is time for us to answer. Who will I be in this story?
I will be a friend who cheers them. Moral authority? It is a good question. I say yes. He has faced every accusation, answered every charge, suffered every indignity, and faced every consequence. Now he is considering resuming ministry in the so-called ’scene of the crime.’ There is no place to hide if you are Ted Haggard in Colorado Springs. If he starts a church it will doubtless be with some of the people who know him best and now know his worst.
Moral authority will come as he walks out his restoration in a very public forum. I plan to join the parade. You should too.
May 25, 2010
Nicely put. Give them both a hug from me.
May 25, 2010
I hope he truly is restored, because many people try to rush the process to fill the void. I will pray for him. It is not my place to say, but if it were – it would entail much meeting with him, not sending him off. He should return and be approved by those who put him into rehab. I wonder if enough time has passed.
May 26, 2010
“It is not my place to say, but if it were -” sounds remarkably like someone with an agenda denying having an agenda.
Seriously? If you have something to say then say it without the preface of “I wonder if enough time has passed.”
Jeff, you’re passive aggressive attempt to engage falls flat. If you want to run with the big dogs, you better find some spirit.
May 27, 2010
Being a Pastor is a dangerous profession..probably explains why 52% of all new Pastors don’t get past the first five years..and 82% of Pastors have thought about resigning. My observation about wifes who forgive serious transgressions (especially being replaced by a series of men lovers) is that they don’t have many options and would rather stay than deal with inadequacy and abandonment issues. Some of these wifes do move on when their restored husbands revert back to their sociopathic behavior. Continous sin without any remorse or feelings (for a long period of time) is steeped with sociopathic influence. Restoring the sociopathic character is not done with a pill and a prayer or a manipulative “I’m sorry”. I have an optimistic view of the work of the Holy Spirit but I understand that long term addictions are just that. The similarities with the Tiger scenario are scary. Prompted and planned penitence that was staged by crowd controllers. Maybe our view of God is too nice. God is not Nice at times. Paul was not nice at times..especially when he assigned the unrepentant Church member to Satan to have His soul rescued…OOOPS
May 28, 2010
We must tell ourselves the truth, seek the truth, be the truth, listen to the truth, obey the truth, think the truth accept the truth! Jesus says, I am the way the truth and the life, he who believes in me shall have everlasting life.
Who cares if Ted Haggard failed at being a sinless saint, why would this surprise any of us!
If Ted is truly dealing with his weakness, and his weakness is homosexuality and drug abuse then he is the only one who must admit to himself that this is his problem. I submit this is not his only problem, his problem is the same as my problem, the heart!
If the rise to power is what caused Ted to fall, make no mistake history will repeat itself, rise to fall, rise to fall! Personally I would not pay any attention to Ted nor would I validate his authority.
He was recently on Larry King, with Pastor Bob Botsford and Jennifer Knapp. I was ashamed for all three for allowing themselves to parade the discontent for one another and one another’s views, in the name of Jesus Christ!
The opponent comes to lie cheat, cheat and steal . He thrives on discouragement embarrassment and making it so that blood rushes to the face of a believer. We must do whatever is necessary to deal with our weakness before we can catapult ourselves back to authority and fame!
Why does Ted need to go for round 2? Let him stay home and repair his marriage and family!
May 29, 2010
Comparing David to Ted? Although the murder of another human being is worse than homosexuality there are some similarities BT King David and Ted. They were both “reigning leaders”(David was king and Ted was the face and leader of the Evangelical Association). They both sinned and were found out publicly. The point I’d like to make is that David had severe consequences that lasted for the rest of his life ie. his children were messed up. Therefore Ted (although forgiven-and potentially ready to be restored to ministry) will HAVE consequences ordained by God that he will suffer for the rest of his life.—and grace does not “cover” it because we are in the New Testament-that’s ridiculous. I think that God may never restore him to ministry and if he does it may only be a percentage of what he could be doing for the kingdom of God. If I were outside looking in as a nonbeliever I would be drawn much more to Christ to see a fallen leader step down for good recognizing his error than some “feel-good” idea of Ted being restored to where he was before—although if that is God’s idea to restore him greater than before then I would celebrate it….restored/not restored? whatever God wants. But again let’s not forget the seriousness of the crime. (During Ted’s sin) if there were only ten Ted’s in a city it would have gotten torched…
May 30, 2010
What about Ted’s homosexual lover? Any real concern about Him? Why should Ted get all the attention?
June 1, 2010
If Ted Haggard is going to be a part of the Revolution, then we’ll take him.
If he plans to stick with the status quo congregational paradigm, then I doubt he’ll make it. Too much paddling upstream to justify the trip.
Right or wrong, it’s obvious that the majority of traditionally-minded church-goers will never be able to accept Ted Haggard as anything more than an embarrassment. That truly makes me sad for Ted and for many others within mainstream Christian circles who will miss out on something amazing that God just might do through Ted and his family.
On a brighter note, the Revolution embraces you, Ted! We’re not looking for anyone to “lead” us. We’re looking for diversity and subjective encounters of grace, hope, and stories of redemption to add to our collage of faith. We don’t need you…we want you.
See, within the Revolution, you don’t have to set the example. Jesus has done that already!
June 1, 2010
PC – grace does “cover it.” Not because we’re in the New Testament, but because Jesus died for our sins. “Grace” does not mean that we face no consequences for our actions, it means that we can be forgiven and allowed into Heaven. And if Ted’s good enough for Heaven, then he’s good enough for me. I do not know Ted personally (although I would like to), but I can assure you that he has faced and will continue to face consequences for his decisions. Doesn’t the Bible teach us that God can take things that are meant for evil and use them for good? Why is it so hard for believers to really believe? We claim to love Jesus and to want to be like Him, but we don’t even seem to believe in the power of His sacrifice. We claim that His blood washes us clean, but our actions do not demonstrate that we truly believe that. Our t-shirts scream “His pain, our gain,” but our comments read more like, “Let Ted fry.”
June 7, 2010
What criteria and/or evidence do you accept that one is restored?
Define restored
Define gospel
Define grace
Define salvation
Many have turned the cross into a RED LIQUID SUPERSTITION
June 15, 2010
To me, this is really rather simple: Ted will always be a lightning-rod for controversy. Irregardless of the merit of either “side” of the argument, if he returns to the pulpit as the pastoral leader of a congregation he stands to cause divisiveness. So, he should simply choose not to seek that position. By seeking the pulpit again he is showing me that, forgiveness and reconcilliation aside, it’s more about him than his flock. There are plenty of ways he and his family can serve the church and God without him standing in the pulpit. And, in fact, I think doing that is a more powerful witness than seeking to be restored to pastoral leadership.
June 15, 2010
Hmm…so a “controversial” person should avoid leadership positions? In my opinion, a strong leader, especially a strong spiritual leader, will always be somewhat controversial. Being a leader means telling people what they need to hear, which is often not the same same thing as what they want to hear. Think of how different our faith might be today if Jesus had avoided conflict.
June 16, 2010
Brooke…Brooke…Brooke…
New wine doesn’t work in old wineskins. You are beating a dead horse. What you are trying to convey about grace being bestowed from God through us into the lives of others cannot be understood by those that simply want to provide color commentary from the sidelines.
You and I are in the game. I don’t know what these guys are seeing from the booth upstairs, but they don’t have a clue about what’s taking place down in the trenches on the field.
Let the spiteful cast spite. It’s not always about “right vs. wrong”…sometimes it’s about “love”…sometimes it’s about “perseverence”…sometimes the oppressors don’t know they are oppressing.
Just look at how many posts this topic has generated in comparison to others on this site. The “right vs. wrong” team lines up on one side and the rest of us line up on the other. The RvW’s perceive that they’ve won when the rest of us start walking off the field. Truth is, the rest of us tire of arguing about such ridiculous nonsense and eventually move on to the next game. All the while the RvW’s are celebrating victory and beating their chests about how “faithful and stalwart” they have proven themselves to be.
Err on the side of forgiveness. Err on the side of grace. Err on the side compassion. Err on the side of understanding we are all broken. Err on the side of sacrifice. Err on the side of tolerance.
In short, be bold enough to err lest we become paralyzed by the pursuit of perfection.
June 28, 2010
“In short, be bold enough to err lest we become paralyzed by the pursuit of perfection.”
And so opens the floodgates of iniquity
June 21, 2010
I served in full-time pastoral ministry for nearly 20 years. My wife became involved with someone with whom she worked (and continues with this person to this day). I continued to work with the church for a couple of years, but felt that divorce (despite the reasons) affected my influence in preaching and teaching others, especially as it relates to family issues and marriage relationships. I have not remarried and have not worked in ministry since 2,000.
Perhaps it is a feeling of failure in my own life, more than what members of the church thought, but I found it difficult to continue to stand in the position of leadership having been divorced. I would like to believe that God has a place for me in His service, or even that someday I can once again preach and teach the word of God, but feel disqualified because of the events that transpired in my personal life.
I believe in forgiveness and certainly divorce is not an unpardonable sin. However, being “above reproach” and one who stands in the forefront of church leadership is a serious responsibility, one that I have never taken lightly. I believe that Ted can (and may be) forgiven for his past actions and that spiritual restoration is absolutely possible. However, for him to once again stand in the position of a leader somehow lessens the calling of ministry. Pastors are not perfect, but involvement in sexual sin is a serious matter and reflective of a certain attitude about sin itself. Some of those who have fallen in the past (PTL, Jimmy Swaggart etc) bring reproach and ridicule upon the church and upon the ministry. Roman Catholic Priests who have committed unspeakable sins with children and then covered the sin over have made EVERY Priest suspect in the minds of the people and the butt of late-night television jokes. Anyone who crosses the line in certain areas, in my mind, is forever disqualified from serving in the Pulpit and leading people.
June 28, 2010
Hello,
I think it rather obvious, when properly dividing truth inscripture.
A leader is to be beyond reproach..
Haggard is not one who finally allowed conviction to come forward..Haggard was on a 20year stint!! And he was caught, and in my opinion simply exposed by God himself, just like swaggart, baker and the other frauds of the gospel were EXPOSED.
Secondly, Haggard admits to sexual confusion!!?? called by some couselors or physchiatritsts as ” homosexual attachment or some weird secular analysis..
Haggard confesses to be unclear about his condition that started at childhood!!!
Folks, how much more does one need to know he does not belong as a leader of any type regarding God’s word..
This has nothing to do with restoring one as a christian.
It has nothing to do about hypocritical judgement.
It has everything to do with simple common sense, also backed up by God’s word as to who is to LEAD..not Follow!!
How did he get by for 20 years of this kind of sinful practice and mental make up?? It is also a plight against those of discernment who are to be insightful of these leaders.
NO, Haggard is simply going back to what makes a good income..He failed at sales in insurance, and simply he has enough of a blind flock to keep making a buck off their blindess and his wife can ride the coat tails by publishing a book and looking cool to a world that finds it very courageous to stay by her man!!
Great material for more bucks..Sometimes the world has more wisdom than the conventional evangelical body of Christ!!
That is even a greater shame folks!!
Lindy
July 2, 2010
Even though the mind or flesh is stubborn and not moved and locked in lust and ignorance there is nothing that we can’t overcome, if we have the desire. The excuse that it is impossible to change ingrained or inherited passions, lusts, and habits is scripturaly imbalanced in light of 1 Corinthians 10:13.
1 Corinthians 10:13
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. (KJV)
This scripture is what makes the issues we face today in church corruption, sexual scandal and avarice such a sad commentary. There was no temptation so great that the individuals involved couldn’t walk away from. The curse causeless shall not come, {Proverbs. 26.2). Bad things do not happen for no reason. But the mind has not been renewed and the individuals can’t see into the Kingdom. They got to the door [Jesus] and never opened the door and entered into the Kingdom. Jesus is “The Way” into the Kingdom of God. If we stop with the salvation of Jesus we don’t move into the Kingdom.
July 4, 2010
God has a history of using the least likely…perhaps T Haggard is yet another least likely. Gods grace is so beyond our understanding this side of eternity. Will T Haggard “ministry” really flourish without Gods approval?? Perhaps we should prayerfully leave the matter in Gods hands.
July 9, 2010
Well said.
July 9, 2010
Just to set the record straight…Brooke is one of my closest friends. She is an early thirty year old happily married mother of 5 adopted children. No one gets to tell this woman what it means to love and forgive. She lives it more everyday than anyone else I know. Mercy and encouragement are her mantra.
Theology be damned.
Sorry to have outted you…but your tenacity deserved explanation.
August 3, 2010
I have a lot of kind thoughts about what Ted Haggard has done in regard to true repentance. I too don’t have an answer, because I believe in redemption. On the other hand, look at the standards the Bible requires of overseers and deacons as set forth in 1 Timothy 3. Does Ted Haggard have a long enough track record in his walk of redemption to match those standards, let alone be a pastor standing in leadership above even overseers and deacons? I do not sit in condemnation of Ted Haggard because I do not feel that I measure up to the standards of 1 Timothy 3 in that my son has strayed from the faith and during the period that he was under my covering. 1 Timothy 3:12. Instead of being the direct spiritual authority in my household, I made the mistake of abrogating that responsibility to the youth pastors of our church. But the Bible is the story of action and consequence, of cause and effect. People today expect instant results and instant forgiveness. The take away from 1 Timothy 3 (among several in this passage) is that we need to humble ourselves far longer than we may desire before we may be worthy again of anointing — and that if you want to be a leader, as my father always told me, you must first show that you are a faithful follower. That takes time, perhaps more than all of us impatient sinners, in seeking absolution, are comfortable enduring. But Christian obedience is not about comfort.
August 16, 2010
IMHO. I believe Ted Haggard is the poster child for what is unscriptural and wrong with the modern model of “Pastor”, as an office or position. A man was never intended by the Lord Jesus Christ to be in “Office” as was Ted Haggard. Local Church wise, or National position of “head” of the Evangelical heirarchy wise.
My Bible reads and sets precedence for and articulates within the whole of the N.T. a “plurality” of Elder/Shepherds in the local community of believers not in an official office, but functioning within the local body and recognized by the whole local body of believers as mature trusted bretern by long time observation and familiarity with the fruits and gifts in their lives humbly building up the saints.
The modern model of “Pastor” is nowhere within the N.T. A man can not fill that role because it is intended for and by Jesus Christ Himself by the Holy Spirit in the local setting and worldwide setting. The modern model of “Pastor” actually hinders the free participation and function of the every believer in the believers gathering as articulated by Paul in 1 Corin. 14:26, and elsewhere. One person should not have that much power, attention, importance, position, or deference, because when they do sin, it has devastating consequence. The differing types of people given to the body of believers (Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Teacher, Elder/Shepherd) are for the “equipping of the Saints for the work of the ministry” not the one guy to do the work of the ministry. The 70×7 forgiving is for individual believers against individual believers. How does one apply that to a prominant nationally recognized office holder unScriptually placed figure? Non-local or Itinerant workers such as Paul and his fellow workers didn’t head national heirarchial structures of organization, nor did they run local community(s) of believers.
That said.
It is a moot point, Ted Haggard coming in and being the go to guy as before. He shouldn’t have been in the first. He surely shouldn’t be in the second!
He needs to settle in as an equal to a group of believers just like the rest of us and function and participate in his God given abilities whether they be gifts of fruits. In that context he or any of us can’t do great damage, but great good. It is all about humility and submitting yourselfs one to another and encouraging and building each other up. Not being Johnny Rockstar Sammy Superchristian again and going off the deep end.