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	<title>Comments on: Pastoral Turnover</title>
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	<description>Facilitating A Spiritual And Moral Revolution</description>
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		<title>By: A. Amos Love</title>
		<link>http://www.georgebarna.com/2010/02/pastoral-turnover/comment-page-1/#comment-368</link>
		<dc:creator>A. Amos Love</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Apr 2010 16:43:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.georgebarna.com/?p=260#comment-368</guid>
		<description>Hmmm? Pastors? Leaders?

Was wondering where a “pastor” is considered a “leader” in the Bible?

Not much info about “Pastors” at all. Most is negative at best.

Jer 2:8 
...the “pastors” also transgressed against me, and the prophets prophesied by Baal...

Jer 10:21 
For the “pastors” are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD...

Jer 12:10 
Many “pastors” have destroyed my vineyard...

Jer 22:22
The wind shall eat up all thy “pastors”...

Jer 23:1 
Woe be unto the “pastors” that destroy and scatter the sheep... 

Jer 23:1
...the LORD God of Israel “against” the “pastors” that feed my people; 
Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away...

Eph 4:11 
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; 
and some, **pastors and teachers; (**shephereds - a low place)

In the Bible, How many people... have the title pastor? 
In the Bible, How many people are... referred to as pastor? 
In the Bible, How many people are... ordained as a pastor? 
In the Bible, How many congregations are... led by a pastor? 

Jer 3:15 
And I will give you “pastors” according to mine heart...

These “pastors” have no “Titles” and don’t “lead” congregations.

Jesus humbled Himself, made Himself of “NO” reputation,
took on the form of a “Servant.” Phil 2:7-8

“Titles” when taken, come with, “A little Bit Extra.”
Power, profit, prestige, honor, glory, recognition, reputation, etc.

All those thing Jesus spoke against.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm? Pastors? Leaders?</p>
<p>Was wondering where a “pastor” is considered a “leader” in the Bible?</p>
<p>Not much info about “Pastors” at all. Most is negative at best.</p>
<p>Jer 2:8<br />
&#8230;the “pastors” also transgressed against me, and the prophets prophesied by Baal&#8230;</p>
<p>Jer 10:21<br />
For the “pastors” are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD&#8230;</p>
<p>Jer 12:10<br />
Many “pastors” have destroyed my vineyard&#8230;</p>
<p>Jer 22:22<br />
The wind shall eat up all thy “pastors”&#8230;</p>
<p>Jer 23:1<br />
Woe be unto the “pastors” that destroy and scatter the sheep&#8230; </p>
<p>Jer 23:1<br />
&#8230;the LORD God of Israel “against” the “pastors” that feed my people;<br />
Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away&#8230;</p>
<p>Eph 4:11<br />
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists;<br />
and some, **pastors and teachers; (**shephereds &#8211; a low place)</p>
<p>In the Bible, How many people&#8230; have the title pastor?<br />
In the Bible, How many people are&#8230; referred to as pastor?<br />
In the Bible, How many people are&#8230; ordained as a pastor?<br />
In the Bible, How many congregations are&#8230; led by a pastor? </p>
<p>Jer 3:15<br />
And I will give you “pastors” according to mine heart&#8230;</p>
<p>These “pastors” have no “Titles” and don’t “lead” congregations.</p>
<p>Jesus humbled Himself, made Himself of “NO” reputation,<br />
took on the form of a “Servant.” Phil 2:7-8</p>
<p>“Titles” when taken, come with, “A little Bit Extra.”<br />
Power, profit, prestige, honor, glory, recognition, reputation, etc.</p>
<p>All those thing Jesus spoke against.</p>
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		<title>By: T.F.</title>
		<link>http://www.georgebarna.com/2010/02/pastoral-turnover/comment-page-1/#comment-304</link>
		<dc:creator>T.F.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:32:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.georgebarna.com/?p=260#comment-304</guid>
		<description>Look at Barna Research more closely. The modern church pulpits have already failed at equipping the folks with a basic understanding of the Word of God according to the research. Yet the same church pulpits voice the loudest complaints towards our declining moral culture, our public schools, our government, etc. Modern seminary&#039;s train pastors to run a business and reach a comfortable lifestyle in the process. The pulpits have to do what they must in order to finance the business budgets. This does not include teaching expository verse by verse Bible doctrine to the people because that is too boring and academic don&#039;t you know! This is why our culture is reeling from decades of neglect from so called pastors who do nothing more than print sermons off of the internet or preach application.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Look at Barna Research more closely. The modern church pulpits have already failed at equipping the folks with a basic understanding of the Word of God according to the research. Yet the same church pulpits voice the loudest complaints towards our declining moral culture, our public schools, our government, etc. Modern seminary&#8217;s train pastors to run a business and reach a comfortable lifestyle in the process. The pulpits have to do what they must in order to finance the business budgets. This does not include teaching expository verse by verse Bible doctrine to the people because that is too boring and academic don&#8217;t you know! This is why our culture is reeling from decades of neglect from so called pastors who do nothing more than print sermons off of the internet or preach application.</p>
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		<title>By: John, an unlikely Pastor</title>
		<link>http://www.georgebarna.com/2010/02/pastoral-turnover/comment-page-1/#comment-229</link>
		<dc:creator>John, an unlikely Pastor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 22:05:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.georgebarna.com/?p=260#comment-229</guid>
		<description>In a decade in ministry it&#039;s clear that there&#039;s two parts to ministry.
#1, and always first, is God&#039;s call based in the Word.  There&#039;s no gimmick to substitute for the the power of the Holy Spirit.  The only thing we have worth sharing is what James (1:21) called the implanted or engrafter Word.  On my own I have no strength; but the Word has all the power.  On my own I have nothing worth sharing; but opening up the Living Word I find plenty of material.
#2, whatever a pastor brings to the table beyond God&#039;s Word, the water of baptism, and the bread and wine of Communion is perishible.
  It&#039;s humbling to find your gifts no longer match the needs of the people you were called to serve.  Mr. Barna says it so simply, our denial is detrimental to everyone.  Human gifts have limits and there are times to move on to new fields.  We aren&#039;t the ones to always reap the harvest; quite the opposite we are the ones meant to plant the seed of God&#039;s Word in faith and gather the harvest that others have planted. 
Pax
John</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In a decade in ministry it&#8217;s clear that there&#8217;s two parts to ministry.<br />
#1, and always first, is God&#8217;s call based in the Word.  There&#8217;s no gimmick to substitute for the the power of the Holy Spirit.  The only thing we have worth sharing is what James (1:21) called the implanted or engrafter Word.  On my own I have no strength; but the Word has all the power.  On my own I have nothing worth sharing; but opening up the Living Word I find plenty of material.<br />
#2, whatever a pastor brings to the table beyond God&#8217;s Word, the water of baptism, and the bread and wine of Communion is perishible.<br />
  It&#8217;s humbling to find your gifts no longer match the needs of the people you were called to serve.  Mr. Barna says it so simply, our denial is detrimental to everyone.  Human gifts have limits and there are times to move on to new fields.  We aren&#8217;t the ones to always reap the harvest; quite the opposite we are the ones meant to plant the seed of God&#8217;s Word in faith and gather the harvest that others have planted.<br />
Pax<br />
John</p>
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		<title>By: Stirr it up Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.georgebarna.com/2010/02/pastoral-turnover/comment-page-1/#comment-225</link>
		<dc:creator>Stirr it up Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 13:51:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.georgebarna.com/?p=260#comment-225</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sorry y&#039;all. I just cannot resist.

1. If Spurrier cannot get it done for my Gamecocks no one can. I do not know what that does to the analogy, but there it is.

2.It is not about a leaders gifting or talents. It is not about knowing limitations, knowing when to move on, knowing how to reinvent oneself or a vision, knowing more of the Greek and Hebrew and how to regurgitate it so as to keep an audience interested. If a &quot;vision&quot; is needed to keep interest and it is not a direct revelation from God it is a gimmick! Do we not believe that God still speaks and empowers or have we finally become those in 2 Timothy 3:5 and have become fully dependent on our intellect. 

It is about KNOWING JESUS and NOT academically! The idea that our religion&#039;s scholars know God more than the rest is Pharisaical and I guarantee repugnant to God Who desires relationship. As we engage in relationship with Jesus we will be given the grace to do and be what ever God intends for us. From relationship we will be given not just fresh revelation but the most needed words for HIS followers. Relationship is NOT a matter of knowing Scriptures; it is talking to God and living in the reality of His presence. IT IS NOT ACADEMIC!!!!!!!!!!!! Seek God like you seek relationship with your spouse or children. 

Frankly, if a preacher with a phd in theology does not know Jesus in intimate relationship he has nothing worth hearing. I would rather hear the unpolished monologue of a high school dropout who is intimate with Jesus then a phd who is reliant upon his credentials.

1 Jn. 2:27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him. 

I am sorry y&#039;all, this organic church thing without the focus being actual relationship with Jesus is just as pointless as the paradigm that God is leading us out of.

I try not to be so ornery, but our house churches are being created and lead by nobody&#039;s and orphans, without Bible degrees, who know God and from Whom their power and authority comes. Moreover, as we continue to build a network of house and open churches in our state I do not expect God to reveal the leadership for such and such an area to be a Bible college grad. I prefer that they NOT be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sorry y&#8217;all. I just cannot resist.</p>
<p>1. If Spurrier cannot get it done for my Gamecocks no one can. I do not know what that does to the analogy, but there it is.</p>
<p>2.It is not about a leaders gifting or talents. It is not about knowing limitations, knowing when to move on, knowing how to reinvent oneself or a vision, knowing more of the Greek and Hebrew and how to regurgitate it so as to keep an audience interested. If a &#8220;vision&#8221; is needed to keep interest and it is not a direct revelation from God it is a gimmick! Do we not believe that God still speaks and empowers or have we finally become those in 2 Timothy 3:5 and have become fully dependent on our intellect. </p>
<p>It is about KNOWING JESUS and NOT academically! The idea that our religion&#8217;s scholars know God more than the rest is Pharisaical and I guarantee repugnant to God Who desires relationship. As we engage in relationship with Jesus we will be given the grace to do and be what ever God intends for us. From relationship we will be given not just fresh revelation but the most needed words for HIS followers. Relationship is NOT a matter of knowing Scriptures; it is talking to God and living in the reality of His presence. IT IS NOT ACADEMIC!!!!!!!!!!!! Seek God like you seek relationship with your spouse or children. </p>
<p>Frankly, if a preacher with a phd in theology does not know Jesus in intimate relationship he has nothing worth hearing. I would rather hear the unpolished monologue of a high school dropout who is intimate with Jesus then a phd who is reliant upon his credentials.</p>
<p>1 Jn. 2:27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him. </p>
<p>I am sorry y&#8217;all, this organic church thing without the focus being actual relationship with Jesus is just as pointless as the paradigm that God is leading us out of.</p>
<p>I try not to be so ornery, but our house churches are being created and lead by nobody&#8217;s and orphans, without Bible degrees, who know God and from Whom their power and authority comes. Moreover, as we continue to build a network of house and open churches in our state I do not expect God to reveal the leadership for such and such an area to be a Bible college grad. I prefer that they NOT be.</p>
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		<title>By: Beth</title>
		<link>http://www.georgebarna.com/2010/02/pastoral-turnover/comment-page-1/#comment-214</link>
		<dc:creator>Beth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 07:24:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.georgebarna.com/?p=260#comment-214</guid>
		<description>Depends on whether you see the root metaphor for ministry as coaching or as a marriage relationship. 

What are you counting as &quot;impact?&quot; What are you defining as &quot;returns?&quot;  

Is there more to ministry than merely preaching? Could ministry  possibly involve incarnating Christ&#039;s faithfulness, love, sacrifice and perserverance? If so, marriage provides a much richer metaphor than sports.  

No doubt marriages can get stale, boring and yes, even comfortable. Spouses can take each other for granted. But  that does not mean that a marriage should be abandoned. In fact, it may be that at this point God is finally able to do some of His most important work. 

After all, we&#039;re going to be &quot;stuck&quot; with each other for all eternity. We better learn now how to be faithful!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Depends on whether you see the root metaphor for ministry as coaching or as a marriage relationship. </p>
<p>What are you counting as &#8220;impact?&#8221; What are you defining as &#8220;returns?&#8221;  </p>
<p>Is there more to ministry than merely preaching? Could ministry  possibly involve incarnating Christ&#8217;s faithfulness, love, sacrifice and perserverance? If so, marriage provides a much richer metaphor than sports.  </p>
<p>No doubt marriages can get stale, boring and yes, even comfortable. Spouses can take each other for granted. But  that does not mean that a marriage should be abandoned. In fact, it may be that at this point God is finally able to do some of His most important work. </p>
<p>After all, we&#8217;re going to be &#8220;stuck&#8221; with each other for all eternity. We better learn now how to be faithful!</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Roberts</title>
		<link>http://www.georgebarna.com/2010/02/pastoral-turnover/comment-page-1/#comment-213</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Roberts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 16:53:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.georgebarna.com/?p=260#comment-213</guid>
		<description>George,

I hope this topic gets a bunch of replies. 
More than 15 years ago I saw a survey listing the chief reasons why people leave the church, and the top reason was - conflict with the pastor. 

First, I want to share an allegory. In modern warfare the opposing side in war knows that there are 2 key tactical elements of a combat team: 
1. The one calling out orders and 
2. The person who has the radio. 
Kill the leader and the others have to figure out who is next in charge and regroup. Kill the radioman and the team temporarily or permanently  loses artillary or close air support. 

Satan knows if he can get the seminaries to produce deceived, inept, unqualified, unconsecrated preachers, then he can detrimentally influence those who the pastor  leads. 
In my opinion, most pastors are poorly trained and in many cases poorly supervised.
I have posted on another topic the 3 key points that sorely need emphasis by the clergy of today.
 Victory, variety, and activity. 
1. The audience is told there is no overcoming the flesh. 
2. Almost all pastors preach shallow topical sermons rather than teach large bible sections or books.
3. Pastors do not know how to get their audience working (EPH 4:12)

Almost all emphasis in on informing to the exclusion of involvement.

&quot;Too many Christians are no longer fishers of men but keepers of the aquarium.&quot;  Paul Harvey

I have communicated with pastors for 40 years and some listen to input but many are too autonomous and have the Laodicean attitude of having need of nothing.

To any pastors reading this &gt;&gt;&gt; You are a traveling salesmen, we are satisfied customers. You get paid to be good, we are good for nothing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>George,</p>
<p>I hope this topic gets a bunch of replies.<br />
More than 15 years ago I saw a survey listing the chief reasons why people leave the church, and the top reason was &#8211; conflict with the pastor. </p>
<p>First, I want to share an allegory. In modern warfare the opposing side in war knows that there are 2 key tactical elements of a combat team:<br />
1. The one calling out orders and<br />
2. The person who has the radio.<br />
Kill the leader and the others have to figure out who is next in charge and regroup. Kill the radioman and the team temporarily or permanently  loses artillary or close air support. </p>
<p>Satan knows if he can get the seminaries to produce deceived, inept, unqualified, unconsecrated preachers, then he can detrimentally influence those who the pastor  leads.<br />
In my opinion, most pastors are poorly trained and in many cases poorly supervised.<br />
I have posted on another topic the 3 key points that sorely need emphasis by the clergy of today.<br />
 Victory, variety, and activity.<br />
1. The audience is told there is no overcoming the flesh.<br />
2. Almost all pastors preach shallow topical sermons rather than teach large bible sections or books.<br />
3. Pastors do not know how to get their audience working (EPH 4:12)</p>
<p>Almost all emphasis in on informing to the exclusion of involvement.</p>
<p>&#8220;Too many Christians are no longer fishers of men but keepers of the aquarium.&#8221;  Paul Harvey</p>
<p>I have communicated with pastors for 40 years and some listen to input but many are too autonomous and have the Laodicean attitude of having need of nothing.</p>
<p>To any pastors reading this &gt;&gt;&gt; You are a traveling salesmen, we are satisfied customers. You get paid to be good, we are good for nothing.</p>
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